Font-families and justified alignment

ElMiko · 07-20-2012, 12:37 PM

I noticed that there are certain font families that both Sigil and Calibre will render with cut-off text on the right margin if you set text alignment to "justify". Palatino Linotype, for instance. Can anyone explain this behavior, and is there a comprehensive list of fonts that have this rendering problem?

Serpentine · 07-20-2012, 05:47 PM

Sounds like font hinting issues; maybe have a poke around with FontForge (there's a reasonable mingw build on some .jp site iirc).

Jellby · 07-21-2012, 03:54 AM

Or maybe fonts with characters that extend beyond their box. But the renderer shouldn't be clipping the characters, unless there's no margin at all or somehow "overflow: hidden" is being applied...

mrmikel · 07-21-2012, 07:40 AM

The use of drop caps on my Sony causes the drop cap to appear, then an entire sentence is shoved off the page at the right leaving only the first letter visible. Invisible is not invisible either, regardless of how many letters, it leaves a 5 or 6 letter blank space, so I think might be onto something Jellby.

ElMiko · 07-21-2012, 03:42 PM

Even with a right margin of 1em, justified Palatino Linotype text wanders off the page at the right margin. There's no overflow css being applied (as far as I can tell).

@Serpentine - I'm afraid I didn't quite follow the meaning of your post... Could you clarify what you meant by "font hinting issues" and by "mingw build"

Serpentine · 07-21-2012, 10:48 PM

Fonts include hints (there are different types on hints, and different formats of fonts, and some tools that can break or do not support them) as to how they should be placed in relation to other characters, rather than the bounds of the characters themselves which can look somewhat ugly (think monospace). If the container is accidently using these hints to work out wrapping or justification spaces, you will run into situations where parts of the character go over the edge.

FontForge is a very powerful tool for working with fonts, it requires you experiment a little bit - but you should be able to find the options for rebuilding a lot of the data which might be missing or incorrect. It however is not intended to be run on Windows. Mingw/cygwin are two different ways to get Linux code working on Windows.

http://www.geocities.jp/meir000/fontforge/

The new build uses cygwin, just extract the file and run the bat file, it will extract and run the tool.

ElMiko · 07-22-2012, 07:23 AM

Hmmmm... okay, how would that fix the problem of how Sigil displays fonts like Palatino Linotype? Really, what I'm trying to determine is why Sigil and Calibre are rendering this font in that manner (when it isn't rendered that way by, say, Word), and, based on the "why", whether there are any other fonts that have this display problem.

cybmole · 07-22-2012, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElMiko

Hmmmm... okay, how would that fix the problem of how Sigil displays fonts like Palatino Linotype? Really, what I'm trying to determine is why Sigil and Calibre are rendering this font in that manner (when it isn't rendered that way by, say, Word), and, based on the "why", whether there are any other fonts that have this display problem.

as sigil is basically a preparation tool for putting epub onto e-readers, surely the important question is how will e-readers handle this (rare?) font, if specified....

....& I guess the answer is that in most cases they will ignore it / replace it with one of their one..

so is this a genuine issue or a "how many angels on a pinhead" debate ?

Doitsu · 07-22-2012, 08:36 AM

If you just want to check the font properties of your fonts, you can also install the MS Font properties extension.
However, since most Linotype fonts hardly ever cause display problems, it's more likely that something is wrong with the Qt rendering engine and/or your html/css.

Can you post a short sample html and the stylesheet that you used?

theducks · 07-22-2012, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElMiko

Hmmmm... okay, how would that fix the problem of how Sigil displays fonts like Palatino Linotype? Really, what I'm trying to determine is why Sigil and Calibre are rendering this font in that manner (when it isn't rendered that way by, say, Word), and, based on the "why", whether there are any other fonts that have this display problem.

Both use the same (QT) display engine. There are quirks in that engine.

You should always check with/on ADE and/or programs using other display engines.

BTW (not using your font) but I recently was reading a book on my PEz and one stay line ran off the edge (16pt right margin) in the middle of a paragraph. (and it looked fine in Sigil) I have seen this on occasion, I just live with it

ElMiko · 07-22-2012, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cybmole

as sigil is basically a preparation tool for putting epub onto e-readers, surely the important question is how will e-readers handle this (rare?) font, if specified....

....& I guess the answer is that in most cases they will ignore it / replace it with one of their one..

so is this a genuine issue or a "how many angels on a pinhead" debate ?

As I said, the problem isn't restricted to Sigil. Calibre also has this rendering problem. Which is precisely why i'm trying to determine the cause: so I can know whether I need to worry about this rendering issue translating to ereaders, and how to avoid it. In any case, I'm not arguing with anyone here—it's not a debate; I'm simply asking a question.

I've attached a sample file. While I was creating the sample, I noticed that when there was only a single paragraph in the document, it rendered without problems. Only when further paragraphs were added did the right-margin go to the dogs.

frostschutz · 07-22-2012, 04:58 PM

It doesn't cut off for me (using sigil/calibre in Linux, Palatino font available). The justification looks a bit more ragged than with other fonts, but nothing too out of the ordinary.

Can you post a screenshot of your issue?

theducks · 07-22-2012, 05:09 PM

First thing,
Neither Windows XP nor Ubuntu 11.10 have (any of) the Palantino font .

There is no fallback specified in the stylesheet

What you get (as a font) is a crap shoot.

EPUBReader handles the justify fine.

My comment still stands Sigil and Calibre use the SAME render engine so you should always see the same behavior.

Doitsu · 07-22-2012, 05:44 PM

I have Palatino Linotype installed on my Windows XP system and your sample epub displays fine with the current stable 32 bit Windows versions of ADE, Calibre and Sigil. What's your system configuration and what Sigil/Calibre versions did you test your epub with? Also check your Qt version by selecting About from Sigil's Help menu.

The only other thing that I noticed that you didn't enclose the font name in quotation marks.
IIRC, font names consisting of multiple words should be enclosed by single or double quotation marks and, as theducks has already pointed out, you didn't specify a fallback font. Your stylesheet contains the following line:

Code:

	font-family: Palatino Linotype;

which should read something like:

Code:

	font-family: "Palatino Linotype", serif;

theducks · 07-22-2012, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doitsu

The only other thing that I noticed that you didn't enclose the font name in quotation marks.
IIRC, font names consisting of multiple words should be enclosed by single or double quotation marks and, as theducks has already pointed out, you didn't specify a fallback font. Your stylesheet contains the following line:

Code:

	font-family: Palatino Linotype;

which should read something like:

Code:

	font-family: "Palatino Linotype", serif;

I should have spotted that lack of Quotes

2 sets of eyes are always better

07-20-2012, 12:37 PM	#1
ElMiko Addict Posts: 379 Karma: 65460 Join Date: Jun 2011 Device: Kindle	Font-families and justified alignment I noticed that there are certain font families that both Sigil and Calibre will render with cut-off text on the right margin if you set text alignment to "justify". Palatino Linotype, for instance. Can anyone explain this behavior, and is there a comprehensive list of fonts that have this rendering problem?

07-22-2012, 04:58 PM	#12
frostschutz Linux User Posts: 2,282 Karma: 6123806 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Device: none	It doesn't cut off for me (using sigil/calibre in Linux, Palatino font available). The justification looks a bit more ragged than with other fonts, but nothing too out of the ordinary. Can you post a screenshot of your issue? Attached Thumbnails

07-22-2012, 05:44 PM	#14
Doitsu Grand Sorcerer Posts: 5,680 Karma: 23983815 Join Date: Dec 2010 Device: Kindle PW2	I have Palatino Linotype installed on my Windows XP system and your sample epub displays fine with the current stable 32 bit Windows versions of ADE, Calibre and Sigil. What's your system configuration and what Sigil/Calibre versions did you test your epub with? Also check your Qt version by selecting About from Sigil's Help menu. The only other thing that I noticed that you didn't enclose the font name in quotation marks. IIRC, font names consisting of multiple words should be enclosed by single or double quotation marks and, as theducks has already pointed out, you didn't specify a fallback font. Your stylesheet contains the following line: Code: font-family: Palatino Linotype; which should read something like: Code: font-family: "Palatino Linotype", serif;

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07-20-2012, 05:47 PM	#2
Serpentine Evangelist Posts: 416 Karma: 1045911 Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Cape Town, South Africa Device: Kindle 3	Sounds like font hinting issues; maybe have a poke around with FontForge (there's a reasonable mingw build on some .jp site iirc).

07-21-2012, 03:54 AM	#3
Jellby frumious Bandersnatch Posts: 7,543 Karma: 19001583 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Spaniard in Sweden Device: Cybook Orizon, Kobo Aura	Or maybe fonts with characters that extend beyond their box. But the renderer shouldn't be clipping the characters, unless there's no margin at all or somehow "overflow: hidden" is being applied...

07-21-2012, 07:40 AM	#4
mrmikel Color me gone Posts: 2,089 Karma: 1445295 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Central Oregon Coast Device: PRS-300	The use of drop caps on my Sony causes the drop cap to appear, then an entire sentence is shoved off the page at the right leaving only the first letter visible. Invisible is not invisible either, regardless of how many letters, it leaves a 5 or 6 letter blank space, so I think might be onto something Jellby.

07-21-2012, 03:42 PM	#5
ElMiko Addict Posts: 379 Karma: 65460 Join Date: Jun 2011 Device: Kindle	Even with a right margin of 1em, justified Palatino Linotype text wanders off the page at the right margin. There's no overflow css being applied (as far as I can tell). @Serpentine - I'm afraid I didn't quite follow the meaning of your post... Could you clarify what you meant by "font hinting issues" and by "mingw build"

07-21-2012, 10:48 PM	#6
Serpentine Evangelist Posts: 416 Karma: 1045911 Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Cape Town, South Africa Device: Kindle 3	Fonts include hints (there are different types on hints, and different formats of fonts, and some tools that can break or do not support them) as to how they should be placed in relation to other characters, rather than the bounds of the characters themselves which can look somewhat ugly (think monospace). If the container is accidently using these hints to work out wrapping or justification spaces, you will run into situations where parts of the character go over the edge. FontForge is a very powerful tool for working with fonts, it requires you experiment a little bit - but you should be able to find the options for rebuilding a lot of the data which might be missing or incorrect. It however is not intended to be run on Windows. Mingw/cygwin are two different ways to get Linux code working on Windows. http://www.geocities.jp/meir000/fontforge/ The new build uses cygwin, just extract the file and run the bat file, it will extract and run the tool.

07-22-2012, 07:23 AM	#7
ElMiko Addict Posts: 379 Karma: 65460 Join Date: Jun 2011 Device: Kindle	Hmmmm... okay, how would that fix the problem of how Sigil displays fonts like Palatino Linotype? Really, what I'm trying to determine is why Sigil and Calibre are rendering this font in that manner (when it isn't rendered that way by, say, Word), and, based on the "why", whether there are any other fonts that have this display problem.

07-22-2012, 08:36 AM	#9
Doitsu Grand Sorcerer Posts: 5,680 Karma: 23983815 Join Date: Dec 2010 Device: Kindle PW2	If you just want to check the font properties of your fonts, you can also install the MS Font properties extension. However, since most Linotype fonts hardly ever cause display problems, it's more likely that something is wrong with the Qt rendering engine and/or your html/css. Can you post a short sample html and the stylesheet that you used?

07-22-2012, 05:09 PM	#13
theducks Well trained by Cats Posts: 30,897 Karma: 60358908 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: The Central Coast of California Device: Kobo Libra2,Kobo Aura2v1, K4NT(Fixed: New Bat.), Galaxy Tab A	First thing, Neither Windows XP nor Ubuntu 11.10 have (any of) the Palantino font . There is no fallback specified in the stylesheet What you get (as a font) is a crap shoot. EPUBReader handles the justify fine. My comment still stands Sigil and Calibre use the SAME render engine so you should always see the same behavior.

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