Copyright (yes, again): When is it breached?

DrNefario · 07-06-2012, 08:24 AM

I try harder than most people to stay within the law, I think, but honestly I'm not quite sure when I'm breaking it. What am I actually allowed to do?

I live in Britain. Project Gutenberg (PG) is in the US. MR is in Canada.

1 - I download a book from PG or MR for my own use. Is it my responsibility to check that it's out of copyright in the UK? Or is that fine - as in actually properly legal, not as in tolerated - as long as I don't distribute it further?

2 - I download a free book from a trustworthy vendor who generally sells geo-restricted material. Is it still my responsibility to know its copyright status in the UK?

3 - I buy a book from a trustworthy vendor who generally sells geo-restricted material. What about then? Surely I have to assume that publishers have the rights to the books they're selling me? Is it the publisher/vendor's responsibility or is it mine?

I have reason to doubt the copyright status of items in all three categories. Obviously there are plenty of books in 1 which aren't out of copyright in the UK, but I regularly get directed to PG by reputable UK sources. My local library, for instance.

For 2, some vendors seem to offer books from PG without really vetting them. I downloaded the two PG Agatha Christie books from Kobo and I'm fairly certain they aren't out of copyright in the UK (although I believed one of them was until quite recently). I don't know if the copyright holder approved, but I'm guessing not.

The third category is similar. A US publisher is offering a collection of works that are out of copyright in the US and not in the UK. This collection is for sale on Amazon UK, and I have no real way of knowing if they have the necessary rights. I don't know whether I should buy this collection while its on offer or not. I might as well just pirate it if my legal position is exactly the same.

peegee · 07-06-2012, 08:29 AM

This is on the front page of Project Gutenberg.

Quote:

Our ebooks are free in the United States because their copyright has expired. They may not be free of copyright in other countries. Readers outside of the United States must check the copyright laws of their countries before downloading or redistributing our ebooks. We also have a number of copyrighted titles, for which the copyright holder has given permission for unlimited non-commercial worldwide use.

I think that answers question 1. You should check if it's PD for you and not download it if it's not.

HarryT · 07-06-2012, 08:30 AM

In all cases, it's technically your responsibility to check, although it's vanishingly unlikely that any rights-holder would take action against you for downloading a book which is, let's say, in the public domain in the US, but not in the UK. But both PG and MR do explicitly tell you to check before downloading.

Fluribus · 07-06-2012, 05:51 PM

There is often a great chasm between what's legal and what's likely.

Lynx-lynx · 07-06-2012, 07:13 PM

Dr Nefario, I've got another take on your genuine question:

How do you determine if a book is IN copyright in the UK?

What are the steps involved?

HarryT · 07-07-2012, 02:06 AM

The UK has a simple "life+70" copyright law. All you need to know is when the author died.

Lynx-lynx · 07-07-2012, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNefario

I try harder than most people to stay within the law, I think, but honestly I'm not quite sure when I'm breaking it. What am I actually allowed to do?

I live in Britain. Project Gutenberg (PG) is in the US. MR is in Canada.

1 - I download a book from PG or MR for my own use. Is it my responsibility to check that it's out of copyright in the UK? Or is that fine - as in actually properly legal, not as in tolerated - as long as I don't distribute it further?

2 - I download a free book from a trustworthy vendor who generally sells geo-restricted material. Is it still my responsibility to know its copyright status in the UK?

3 - I buy a book from a trustworthy vendor who generally sells geo-restricted material. What about then? Surely I have to assume that publishers have the rights to the books they're selling me? Is it the publisher/vendor's responsibility or is it mine?

I have reason to doubt the copyright status of items in all three categories. Obviously there are plenty of books in 1 which aren't out of copyright in the UK, but I regularly get directed to PG by reputable UK sources. My local library, for instance.

For 2, some vendors seem to offer books from PG without really vetting them. I downloaded the two PG Agatha Christie books from Kobo and I'm fairly certain they aren't out of copyright in the UK (although I believed one of them was until quite recently). I don't know if the copyright holder approved, but I'm guessing not.

The third category is similar. A US publisher is offering a collection of works that are out of copyright in the US and not in the UK. This collection is for sale on Amazon UK, and I have no real way of knowing if they have the necessary rights. I don't know whether I should buy this collection while its on offer or not. I might as well just pirate it if my legal position is exactly the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

The UK has a simple "life+70" copyright law. All you need to know is when the author died.

Thanks Harry, but Dr Nefario has confused a couple of issues because as it appears that both the UK and the US share the same 70 years + death ruling then as suggested by Dr Nefario a book can't be out of copyright and then back in copyright.

Dr Nefario I suspect you're thinking in terms of when a title is re published? Is a title still considered out of copyright if it is re published post the author's death?

Is that one of the questions that you're asking?

HarryT · 07-07-2012, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynx-lynx

Thanks Harry, but Dr Nefario has confused a couple of issues because as it appears that both the UK and the US share the same 70 years + death ruling then as suggested by Dr Nefario a book can't be out of copyright and then back in copyright.

The US does indeed have a life+70 copyright law, but it only came into force in, I believe, the 1970s, and is not retrospective. For works published before the 1970s, the US had a system of copyright registration and renewal, which is why many works are in the public domain in the US, but not elsewhere.

The UK has a simple life+70 copyright law with (almost) no exceptions. All you need to know is when the author died.

DrNefario · 07-07-2012, 05:27 AM

It was my belief that changed quite recently, not the copyright status.

(I believed that since Mysterious Affair at Styles was originally published in the US (although I'm not even sure of that, since it was serialised before the book edition), then the rule of the shorter term would apply, and it would take the US copyright term. It turns out, though, that although we now have the shorter term rule, we didn't between 1957 and 1996 and the rule does not retrospectively apply to anything that was renewed then, which would include the Christies. The way the law was changed in the UK always seems to favour the longer term. If the new law gives a longer term, then it is retrospective, if not, then it isn't.)

I can make a reasonable attempt at finding out if a book is in the public domain or not, but I don't really see how I can find out if a publisher has the rights they claim to have.

HarryT · 07-07-2012, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNefario

I can make a reasonable attempt at finding out if a book is in the public domain or not, but I don't really see how I can find out if a publisher has the rights they claim to have.

It's reasonable to trust that a publisher has the right to publish the material they are publishing, and I doubt anyone would claim otherwise.

pdurrant · 07-07-2012, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNefario

A US publisher is offering a collection of works that are out of copyright in the US and not in the UK. This collection is for sale on Amazon UK, and I have no real way of knowing if they have the necessary rights. I don't know whether I should buy this collection while its on offer or not. I might as well just pirate it if my legal position is exactly the same.

I would not buy from a US publisher if the work is out of copyright in the US, as none of the money will go to the estate, only to the publisher.

If there was no UK edition available, I would probably do without or get it from Project Gutenberg, with the intention of getting the UK edition if it ever appears.

Quexos · 07-07-2012, 07:01 AM

You also have the natural right to defend yourself, the natural right to think and determine what is right from what is wrong. You don't have to blindly follow the system because, and this is very important to understand, the system is NOT there to defend your interests. As a consumer you are a pawn in the system's hands that must earn your cash and spend it as the system wants you to. The system is both juror and executioner and as such it cannot be impartial. Which is why you must not follow it blindly.
There are way too many parts of the system for which you don't have a choice but to follow without much hopes of actual justice. You must pay for food or starve if you can't, you must hope to live in a country that is stable and without war or else you can be murdered legally or have to murder if you are a soldier (which is just as bad). If someone commits a crime against you and that someone is very wealthy, he can afford the best lawyers to bail him out and the chances of you going down are very real, and so on ...
So please don't try to be "more catholic than the pope", don't say stuff like you try to stay within the law harder than most people. Just stay normally within the law, don't hurt anyone, pay your taxes and feed your family, that will be achievement enough to be proud of without groveling to the system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNefario

I try harder than most people to stay within the law, I think, but honestly I'm not quite sure when I'm breaking it. What am I actually allowed to do?

Muckraker · 07-07-2012, 12:23 PM

I did a lot of research into Public Domain and international copyright because I was fed up with the whole "it may be PD in the US but that doesn't mean it's PD elsewhere," thing. The information I'm about to give only applies to work by US authors originally published in the US, determined to be in the US public domain, and that does not contain any supplemental material from later editions.

If an American writer first publishes a book with a US publishing house and that book is in the public domain in the US then the book is also in the public domain of every signatory country of the Berne Convention--which is just about every country other than the US--due to the "rule of the shorter term." This rule states that signatories will consider work to be in their own public domain if the work is public domain in its country of origin. A complete list of countries is located here: http://www.copyrightaid.co.uk/copyri...on_signatories

I'm currently battling Createspace over this matter because they are claiming that US public domain material cannot be sold in their newly-offered European Distribution Channel because it may not be public domain in the countries that channel covers--UK, France, Germany, Spain, and Italy. I'm pointing out to Createspace that all of those countries signed the Berne Convention and adhere to the completely logical and simple "rule of the shorter term." Any US-generated, US-published public domain work is also public domain in every country Createspace distributes to.

There are obviously some complications that arise when books are written or published across multiple countries or the edition in question uses material or translations that may still be under copyright in whatever country that supplementary material was created.

In my opinion, the perceived murky nature of copyright and international copyright on possible public domain material is not protecting IP rights as much as it is ensuring that many lesser-known works will be lost and their creators forgotten.

Muckraker · 07-07-2012, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNefario

A US publisher is offering a collection of works that are out of copyright in the US and not in the UK. This collection is for sale on Amazon UK, and I have no real way of knowing if they have the necessary rights.

If the US public domain work was originally written and published in the US then the work is also public domain in the UK--and just about everywhere else on the planet.

DrNefario · 07-07-2012, 01:34 PM

This page:

http://www.publicdomaintreasurehunte...ks-in-the-u-k/

...seems to suggest that the rule of the shorter term probably doesn't apply in most cases because it didn't apply between 1957 and 1996 and wasn't retrospective.

In this particular case the works are not US in origin (I don't think).

Quexos, if I choose to break this law, I'd at least like to know that is what I'm doing, and I'd definitely prefer not to pay someone else to break it.

07-06-2012, 08:24 AM	#1
DrNefario Wizard Posts: 2,189 Karma: 12000000 Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: UK Device: Kindle, Kobo Touch, Nook SimpleTouch	Copyright (yes, again): When is it breached? I try harder than most people to stay within the law, I think, but honestly I'm not quite sure when I'm breaking it. What am I actually allowed to do? I live in Britain. Project Gutenberg (PG) is in the US. MR is in Canada. 1 - I download a book from PG or MR for my own use. Is it my responsibility to check that it's out of copyright in the UK? Or is that fine - as in actually properly legal, not as in tolerated - as long as I don't distribute it further? 2 - I download a free book from a trustworthy vendor who generally sells geo-restricted material. Is it still my responsibility to know its copyright status in the UK? 3 - I buy a book from a trustworthy vendor who generally sells geo-restricted material. What about then? Surely I have to assume that publishers have the rights to the books they're selling me? Is it the publisher/vendor's responsibility or is it mine? I have reason to doubt the copyright status of items in all three categories. Obviously there are plenty of books in 1 which aren't out of copyright in the UK, but I regularly get directed to PG by reputable UK sources. My local library, for instance. For 2, some vendors seem to offer books from PG without really vetting them. I downloaded the two PG Agatha Christie books from Kobo and I'm fairly certain they aren't out of copyright in the UK (although I believed one of them was until quite recently). I don't know if the copyright holder approved, but I'm guessing not. The third category is similar. A US publisher is offering a collection of works that are out of copyright in the US and not in the UK. This collection is for sale on Amazon UK, and I have no real way of knowing if they have the necessary rights. I don't know whether I should buy this collection while its on offer or not. I might as well just pirate it if my legal position is exactly the same.

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07-06-2012, 08:30 AM	#3
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	In all cases, it's technically your responsibility to check, although it's vanishingly unlikely that any rights-holder would take action against you for downloading a book which is, let's say, in the public domain in the US, but not in the UK. But both PG and MR do explicitly tell you to check before downloading.

07-06-2012, 05:51 PM	#4
Fluribus Guru Posts: 891 Karma: 8893661 Join Date: Feb 2012 Device: Kindle	There is often a great chasm between what's legal and what's likely.

07-06-2012, 07:13 PM	#5
Lynx-lynx Treachery of images ... Posts: 4,113 Karma: 92523791 Join Date: May 2012 Location: Australia Device: Sony 650, Kobo Glo, H2O, Aura One, Forma, Libra 2, Libra Colour	Dr Nefario, I've got another take on your genuine question: How do you determine if a book is IN copyright in the UK? What are the steps involved?

07-07-2012, 02:06 AM	#6
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	The UK has a simple "life+70" copyright law. All you need to know is when the author died.

07-07-2012, 05:27 AM	#9
DrNefario Wizard Posts: 2,189 Karma: 12000000 Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: UK Device: Kindle, Kobo Touch, Nook SimpleTouch	It was my belief that changed quite recently, not the copyright status. (I believed that since Mysterious Affair at Styles was originally published in the US (although I'm not even sure of that, since it was serialised before the book edition), then the rule of the shorter term would apply, and it would take the US copyright term. It turns out, though, that although we now have the shorter term rule, we didn't between 1957 and 1996 and the rule does not retrospectively apply to anything that was renewed then, which would include the Christies. The way the law was changed in the UK always seems to favour the longer term. If the new law gives a longer term, then it is retrospective, if not, then it isn't.) I can make a reasonable attempt at finding out if a book is in the public domain or not, but I don't really see how I can find out if a publisher has the rights they claim to have.

07-07-2012, 12:23 PM	#13
Muckraker Connoisseur Posts: 65 Karma: 2409168 Join Date: Mar 2011 Device: kindle	I did a lot of research into Public Domain and international copyright because I was fed up with the whole "it may be PD in the US but that doesn't mean it's PD elsewhere," thing. The information I'm about to give only applies to work by US authors originally published in the US, determined to be in the US public domain, and that does not contain any supplemental material from later editions. If an American writer first publishes a book with a US publishing house and that book is in the public domain in the US then the book is also in the public domain of every signatory country of the Berne Convention--which is just about every country other than the US--due to the "rule of the shorter term." This rule states that signatories will consider work to be in their own public domain if the work is public domain in its country of origin. A complete list of countries is located here: http://www.copyrightaid.co.uk/copyri...on_signatories I'm currently battling Createspace over this matter because they are claiming that US public domain material cannot be sold in their newly-offered European Distribution Channel because it may not be public domain in the countries that channel covers--UK, France, Germany, Spain, and Italy. I'm pointing out to Createspace that all of those countries signed the Berne Convention and adhere to the completely logical and simple "rule of the shorter term." Any US-generated, US-published public domain work is also public domain in every country Createspace distributes to. There are obviously some complications that arise when books are written or published across multiple countries or the edition in question uses material or translations that may still be under copyright in whatever country that supplementary material was created. In my opinion, the perceived murky nature of copyright and international copyright on possible public domain material is not protecting IP rights as much as it is ensuring that many lesser-known works will be lost and their creators forgotten.

07-07-2012, 01:34 PM	#15
DrNefario Wizard Posts: 2,189 Karma: 12000000 Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: UK Device: Kindle, Kobo Touch, Nook SimpleTouch	This page: http://www.publicdomaintreasurehunte...ks-in-the-u-k/ ...seems to suggest that the rule of the shorter term probably doesn't apply in most cases because it didn't apply between 1957 and 1996 and wasn't retrospective. In this particular case the works are not US in origin (I don't think). Quexos, if I choose to break this law, I'd at least like to know that is what I'm doing, and I'd definitely prefer not to pay someone else to break it.

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