Moral and legal questions about using VPNs to avoid georestrictions

Hellmark · 08-17-2011, 11:39 AM

HarryT recently in another thread made mention about using VPNs to get around georestrictions to use Google Books, and it made me curious as to what you thought about it, and what legal issues may arise from it.

For example, I've been tempted to buy Bob Burke's The Ho Ho Ho Mystery from Waterstones, because in the UK the ebook sells for £0.49 (Roughly 80 cents US) where as in the US the same book from the same publisher (HarperCollins) sells for $19.99. Part of me is hesitant because Bob's been around MR, and always seemed cool when I talked with him, and I'd like the money to go to him. Of course, that part is at odds with the other part that is going "Dude! It is 25 times more expensive to buy in the US!" Would it be ethical to buy from the UK, where it is so much cheaper?

bgalbrecht · 08-17-2011, 02:19 PM

Do you think it's unethical to order a dead tree book or a movie from a foreign country because it's cheaper there? Do you think it's unethical to order a dead tree book or a movie from a foreign country because it's not sold in your country? If the answer is no, then the answer is no if you are trying to buy an ebook in a foreign country and using a VPN and/or foreign credit card to do so.

Shaggy · 08-17-2011, 02:39 PM

If the pBook was $0.80 at "Bookstore A" but it was $19.99 at "Bookstore B" down the street, which one would you shop at? Would you feel unethical if you bought it from the cheaper store?

Fbone · 08-17-2011, 04:00 PM

I'm guessing Harper Collins made a pricing error. A typo. They probably meant to enter $1.99 and accidentally entered $19.99. The first book is priced at $1.99.

anamardoll · 08-17-2011, 05:17 PM

I've been thinking about geo-restrictions for awhile because I really want the Roald Dahl books which are available in the UK but not America. I own the hardcopies, I could rip-scan-OCR them if I wanted to, but they're RIGHT THERE on the UK sites. *whimper*

Has anyone from America actually done this? Will an American credit card work fine if the VPN is used? Is it illegal? Is it immoral? I just don't know.

Andrew H. · 08-17-2011, 06:14 PM

Buying a book with geo-restrictions isn't illegal. The geo-restriction doesn't come about by law (like copyright); it comes about as the result of a contract between the author and a seller (publisher, retailer, etc.) in which the author geographically limits the seller's right to sell to a certain market. Consumers aren't a party to the contract and so aren't bound to it.

I don't think that there is a moral problem in avoiding georestrictions, either. Although the author and various publishers and retailers have divided the world up into various exclusive territories, I'm not sure why consumers should be morally bound by these arrangements. The author is getting compensated either way.

wallcraft · 08-17-2011, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anamardoll

Has anyone from America actually done this? Will an American credit card work fine if the VPN is used? Is it illegal? Is it immoral? I just don't know.

I use an EntroPay prepaid virtual visa card to buy from WHSmith from the US. I don't use a VPN, but I do use a "fake" UK address (actually a real address, but I don't live there) - EntroPay does not care what address you give retailers. It costs 5% upfront to fill the card.

sabredog · 08-17-2011, 09:22 PM

Well I certainly use a VPN to avoid geographic restrictions and have NO problems doing so.

I pay the author for their work this way as the only alternative is to visit the berthed galleon parked down at the local quay.

The former is far more ethical in my mind than the later.

VydorScope · 08-17-2011, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

If the pBook was $0.80 at "Bookstore A" but it was $19.99 at "Bookstore B" down the street, which one would you shop at? Would you feel unethical if you bought it from the cheaper store?

Yea, Im with this guy.

Thats kind of how the entire American capitalistic economy is built. You vote with your dollars.

encapuchado · 08-17-2011, 11:12 PM

I also use VPN to avoid georestrictions. I don't find it objectionable as I'm paying for the content not stealing it.

Sweetpea · 08-18-2011, 04:28 AM

I used to use VPN, but I stopped doing that. Right now, I simply won't buy the book and there is a lost sale. Maybe tough on the writer, but (s)he isn't aware of the problems of geographic restrictions, I'm not even sure I'd want to support her/him.

I wasn't doing it so much for price, but rather availability. As if there's a Dutch store that really carries English e-books...

HarryT · 08-18-2011, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

I wasn't doing it so much for price, but rather availability.

Likewise. New books I can buy at Amazon or Waterstones. The reason I use VPN is to download old scanned books from Google Books.

banjobama · 08-18-2011, 05:34 AM

I used VPN frequently when I lived overseas to download books and music, and to stream Netflix. I felt fine about all of it. In the case of buying things, I felt like I was forcing my money onto the company. In the case of Netflix, I was just using what I was already paying for.

EowynCarter · 08-18-2011, 08:00 AM

Honestly, if I have to go to such extrem as using a VPN to buy a book, i'll go read something else.

sabredog · 08-18-2011, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

Honestly, if I have to go to such extrem as using a VPN to buy a book, i'll go read something else.

Once you experience excessive geo restrictions, you might have a change of opinion.

Getting slowly better but nowhere quick enough.

08-17-2011, 11:39 AM	#1
Hellmark Wizard Posts: 2,592 Karma: 4290425 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Foristell, Missouri, USA Device: Nokia N800, PRS-505, Nook STR Glowlight, Kindle 3, Kobo Libra 2	Moral and legal questions about using VPNs to avoid georestrictions HarryT recently in another thread made mention about using VPNs to get around georestrictions to use Google Books, and it made me curious as to what you thought about it, and what legal issues may arise from it. For example, I've been tempted to buy Bob Burke's The Ho Ho Ho Mystery from Waterstones, because in the UK the ebook sells for £0.49 (Roughly 80 cents US) where as in the US the same book from the same publisher (HarperCollins) sells for $19.99. Part of me is hesitant because Bob's been around MR, and always seemed cool when I talked with him, and I'd like the money to go to him. Of course, that part is at odds with the other part that is going "Dude! It is 25 times more expensive to buy in the US!" Would it be ethical to buy from the UK, where it is so much cheaper? Last edited by Hellmark; 08-17-2011 at 11:48 AM.

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08-17-2011, 02:19 PM	#2
bgalbrecht Wizard Posts: 1,806 Karma: 13399999 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: US Device: Nook Simple Touch, Kobo Glo HD, Kobo Clara HD, Kindle 4	Do you think it's unethical to order a dead tree book or a movie from a foreign country because it's cheaper there? Do you think it's unethical to order a dead tree book or a movie from a foreign country because it's not sold in your country? If the answer is no, then the answer is no if you are trying to buy an ebook in a foreign country and using a VPN and/or foreign credit card to do so.

08-17-2011, 02:39 PM	#3
Shaggy Wizard Posts: 4,293 Karma: 529619 Join Date: May 2007 Device: iRex iLiad, DR800SG	If the pBook was $0.80 at "Bookstore A" but it was $19.99 at "Bookstore B" down the street, which one would you shop at? Would you feel unethical if you bought it from the cheaper store?

08-17-2011, 04:00 PM	#4
Fbone Is that a sandwich? Posts: 8,288 Karma: 101697116 Join Date: Jun 2010 Device: Nook Glowlight Plus	I'm guessing Harper Collins made a pricing error. A typo. They probably meant to enter $1.99 and accidentally entered $19.99. The first book is priced at $1.99.

08-17-2011, 05:17 PM	#5
anamardoll Chasing Butterflies Posts: 3,132 Karma: 5074169 Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: American Southwest Device: Uses batteries.	I've been thinking about geo-restrictions for awhile because I really want the Roald Dahl books which are available in the UK but not America. I own the hardcopies, I could rip-scan-OCR them if I wanted to, but they're RIGHT THERE on the UK sites. whimper Has anyone from America actually done this? Will an American credit card work fine if the VPN is used? Is it illegal? Is it immoral? I just don't know.

08-17-2011, 06:14 PM	#6
Andrew H. Grand Master of Flowers Posts: 2,201 Karma: 8389072 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Naptown Device: Kindle PW, Kindle 3 (aka Keyboard), iPhone, iPad 3 (not for reading)	Buying a book with geo-restrictions isn't illegal. The geo-restriction doesn't come about by law (like copyright); it comes about as the result of a contract between the author and a seller (publisher, retailer, etc.) in which the author geographically limits the seller's right to sell to a certain market. Consumers aren't a party to the contract and so aren't bound to it. I don't think that there is a moral problem in avoiding georestrictions, either. Although the author and various publishers and retailers have divided the world up into various exclusive territories, I'm not sure why consumers should be morally bound by these arrangements. The author is getting compensated either way.

08-17-2011, 09:22 PM	#8
sabredog Geographically Restricted Posts: 2,629 Karma: 14933353 Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Perth, Australia Device: Sony PRS-T3, Kindle Voyage, iPad Air2, Nexus7v2	Well I certainly use a VPN to avoid geographic restrictions and have NO problems doing so. I pay the author for their work this way as the only alternative is to visit the berthed galleon parked down at the local quay. The former is far more ethical in my mind than the later.

08-17-2011, 11:12 PM	#10
encapuchado Banned Posts: 130 Karma: 7587966 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Mexico Device: Black Sony Touch (650)	I also use VPN to avoid georestrictions. I don't find it objectionable as I'm paying for the content not stealing it.

08-18-2011, 04:28 AM	#11
Sweetpea Grand Sorcerer Posts: 9,707 Karma: 32763414 Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Krewerd Device: Pocketbook Inkpad 4 Color; Samsung Galaxy Tab S6	I used to use VPN, but I stopped doing that. Right now, I simply won't buy the book and there is a lost sale. Maybe tough on the writer, but (s)he isn't aware of the problems of geographic restrictions, I'm not even sure I'd want to support her/him. I wasn't doing it so much for price, but rather availability. As if there's a Dutch store that really carries English e-books...

08-18-2011, 05:34 AM	#13
banjobama Busy Read'n Posts: 980 Karma: 5039283 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Auburn, WA Device: Pocketbook Touch Lux 5	I used VPN frequently when I lived overseas to download books and music, and to stream Netflix. I felt fine about all of it. In the case of buying things, I felt like I was forcing my money onto the company. In the case of Netflix, I was just using what I was already paying for.

08-18-2011, 08:00 AM	#14
EowynCarter Wizard Posts: 4,337 Karma: 4000000 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Paris Device: Cybooks; Sony PRS-T1	Honestly, if I have to go to such extrem as using a VPN to buy a book, i'll go read something else.

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