Kindle or EPUB?

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by LakeLoon

Now if publishers/retailers were smart, they would offer a "trade up" program that lets you buy, say, the Kindle version of an ePub you already own for a low but meaningful fee. Assuming the fee gets spread around correctly, pretty much everybody wins. (I am assuming here that relatively few people would be willing to pay full price for a Kindle version of an ePub they already bought.)

I personally wouldn't pay a penny more for a different file format. The trade-up I would pay for, though, is from a paperback to a digital file. Or for a package of a physical book and a digital file.

[LakeLoon]

Originally Posted by Catlady

I personally wouldn't pay a penny more for a different file format.

I'm not sure I would either, but the fact remains that many people are philosophically opposed to, or technically incapable of, breaking DRM to switch platforms. Offering a simple, legal, and inexpensive upgrade path is a no-brainer, to me.

Originally Posted by Catlady

The trade-up I would pay for, though, is from a paperback to a digital file.

I have thought about this a lot. I personally agree, but I have a very hard time seeing how it would be manageable. Some people would buy poor-condition used books super-cheap simply for the upgrade--I probably would. Unless you had to surrender the paper book, the market would suddenly be flooded with cheap used paper books as people decided to keep the ebook and sell/give away the paper one. OTOH, if you have to surrender the paper book, what is going to happen to all the surrendered copies? Collecting and disposing of them is expensive, and it just seems wasteful. You could give them to libraries, but libraries only want/need/have room for so many copies of a given Danielle Steele novel.

However, Amazon is in a position to do something more limited. If you bought a paper book through them, they could conceivably give you a discount on the Kindle version later on. Probably good for Amazon, but for the publisher . . . maybe not so much.

[=X=]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Every e-book I've looked at on Amazon and BN has had the same price, and if it's been available in one store, it's been in the other store. Both seem equally convenient.

I think people do care about format when they realize that Kindle both locks them out of library borrowing and ties them only to Amazon, forever. Kindle had a big head start but will its domination last with so many challengers around now?

Actually bad example, since buying books from B&N locks you into B&N forever as well.
However with both B&N and Kindle you can buy books from outside their stores. With the Kindle they must be DRM free. For B&N they must be Adobe DRM or DRM free.


Your lack of understanding in DRM is really the issue I have with ePUB. It's a subtle detail with a HUGE impact, most people don't understand it and see ePUB just like you. That is if they buy ePUB then it is accessible across all devices and that is far from the truth. If a format is associated with a DRM scheme then that virtually creates it's own format. With ePUB you have three formats an with the Kindle you have only one. To further exemplify my "One Format" point, you can even read MobiPocket books bought from any eBook store including library books on your kindle. So long as that Mobi book has your Kindle PID.


Also it looks like you are new to the eBook industry, so I'll clear something up, Amazon does not have a head start. SONY was in the business years before Amazon as was eReader.

However Amazon came in and did one thing neither of these guys did. Make buying books easy, selling books at low prices, and have a selection.

Which goes back to my point, price, selection and convenience really are key. I've said it back when even when SONY was ahead of the game as I say it today.

When B&N came into the business they too where priced much higher than Amazon so they where playing catchup since they started.

The only reason today that B&N have the same prices as Amazon is due to the publishers who forced this model on all retailers. However when their contract ends beginning of next year well see if this model will still be in place.

Originally Posted by LakeLoon

Isn't this the point? I think most people who say "Kindle should support ePub" really mean "Kindle should support Adobe Digital Editions" (or whatever DRM standard is used by a competing bookstore). If your ePub is non-DRM'd, you can convert it to MOBI, with some limitations, and vice versa.

Yes I agree with you, what people mean when they asking for is Adobe ePUB. However that is not what they are asking for, their asking for ePUB because the concept of DRM is very hard for many people to understand.
I hope that in the next ePUB go around ePUB nails down DRM, just like DVD nailed down DRM. This way when people buy ePUB it truly works across all devices.

Originally Posted by LakeLoon

I agree with =X=, it makes absolutely no business sense for Amazon to support competing DRM schemes. All it means is losing money from lost sales (i.e., the person bought the book elsewhere or borrowed it from a library).

Yeah, I've never understood the library argument. Hey Amazon if you want my money support ePUB so I can borrow library books for free.

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by =X=

Actually bad example, since buying books from B&N locks you into B&N forever as well.

Ummm, not quite. Jetbook and Pandigital both support Adobe's ereader DRM as well as their Adept DRM in addition to the Nook. Further, I am pretty sure that Adobe and B&N have said that any other vendor who uses Adobe ADE, can elect to support ereader DRM if they choose. The only thing I am not sure about is if the DRM is open to other ebook stores.

So, if you have a Nook, Pandigital Novel (either the LCD readers or the new SiPix reader), the Jetbook or Jetbook-lite, you can buy books from B&N, Borders, Kobo, Fictionwise, Books on Board. If you buy books from B&N, you can read them on the Nook, Pandigital or Jetbook readers (and potentially other readers if they decide to support it). How are you locked in again?

Yes, you can't access ebooks from Kindle or Apple, but they are about the only ones.

--
Bill

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by =X=

Actually bad example, since buying books from B&N locks you into B&N forever as well.
However with both B&N and Kindle you can buy books from outside their stores. With the Kindle they must be DRM free. For B&N they must be Adobe DRM or DRM free.

All I know is that my e-reader (JBL) lets me purchase epub books from BN, Kobo, and Borders--but not Amazon--and lets me borrow library books. So I have choices that I would not have with Kindle. How am I locked into BN forever?

Originally Posted by =X=

Your lack of understanding in DRM is really the issue I have with ePUB. It's a subtle detail with a HUGE impact, most people don't understand it and see ePUB just like you. That is if they buy ePUB then it is accessible across all devices and that is far from the truth. If a format is associated with a DRM scheme then that virtually creates it's own format. With ePUB you have three formats an with the Kindle you have only one. To further exemplify my "One Format" point, you can even read MobiPocket books bought from any eBook store including library books on your kindle. So long as that Mobi book has your Kindle PID.

My public library has some books available in mobi. When I was deciding on a reader, I thought this meant I could get these books with a Kindle. But no, when I looked further at the borrowing FAQ, the Kindle was specifically mentioned as not supported. I'm sure there are ways around it, but with my e-reader I don't have to jump through any hoops.

Originally Posted by =X=

Also it looks like you are new to the eBook industry, so I'll clear something up, Amazon does not have a head start. SONY was in the business years before Amazon as was eReader.

However Amazon came in and did one thing neither of these guys did. Make buying books easy, selling books at low prices, and have a selection.

Yes, I am new, but I did know that Amazon wasn't actually the first. But as you indicate, it was the first in terms of putting the e-readers on the map, and that is what I was referring to, the popular perception.

Originally Posted by =X=

Yeah, I've never understood the library argument. Hey Amazon if you want my money support ePUB so I can borrow library books for free.

It's the same idea as when free e-books are offered--you read something by an author that's new to you, you like it, you buy more books by that author. If I read a library book and enjoy it, I'll buy it, or something else by that author that the library doesn't have.

[LakeLoon]

Originally Posted by Catlady

It's the same idea as when free e-books are offered--you read something by an author that's new to you, you like it, you buy more books by that author. If I read a library book and enjoy it, I'll buy it, or something else by that author that the library doesn't have.

This is a fair point, but I think there is a difference. Cheap/free ebook deals are often either old works by established authors, or new ones by less established authors. They want to encourage you to spend the premium for new books when they are first released. Libraries, on the other hand, are often used by folks to read new/recent books by established authors without having to pay for them.

[tammycravit]

I have to say that, as a consumer, I am rather reluctant to call Adobe's DRM scheme "open" or a "standard". I had an experience several years ago with a very early e-book ("God's Debris", by Scott Adams) which at that time was released as a DRM'd PDF file of some sort. Well, guess what happened when I bought a new computer? That DRM scheme was no longer supported, and I couldn't read the book. Granted, I'd only spent a couple bucks on it, but still.

Personally, I hope someday soon the publishing industry realizes the folly of DRM and we can all move on. In the meantime, I'm downloading those DRM-stripping tools so that if/when Amazon's AZW format becomes an orphan, I'll be able to rescue my content. (I expect that the DMCA or its administratively-created exemptions will allow such behavior by then, but who knows.)

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by LakeLoon

This is a fair point, but I think there is a difference. Cheap/free ebook deals are often either old works by established authors, or new ones by less established authors. They want to encourage you to spend the premium for new books when they are first released. Libraries, on the other hand, are often used by folks to read new/recent books by established authors without having to pay for them.

Yes, but the library selections currently aren't anywhere near as extensive as what the bookstores offer. So if I borrow a book and discover I like the author, I'll head for a bookstore for his or her other books. If the first book wasn't available for me to sample, I might never discover the author at all and never spend any money at the bookstore.

And if I want to read a new/popular e-book from the library, the situation is the same as with a physical book--either I get on a long waiting list, or I buy it.

The question really is why Amazon--the biggest fish in the pond--apparently feels most threatened by the library system.

[LakeLoon]

Originally Posted by Catlady

The question really is why Amazon--the biggest fish in the pond--apparently feels most threatened by the library system.

If Amazon was the one who sold the books to the library in the first place, and if the library's Kindle support gave more people a reason to run out and buy a Kindle, perhaps that would give Amazon a reason to embrace limited library support. As I mentioned in an earlier post, if Amazon can enable "lending" on the Kindle, then theoretically they should be able to set up library loans as well (via their own DRM, not ADE/ePub). I hope they do, but I have no sense of whether that's in the cards.

[Bookworm_Girl]

Nowthenmobile, if you haven't made your decision yet, Sony is offering a deal in the UK on ereaders. There are a few threads in the Sony forum about the discount. Make your purchase before 24th December and then claim back the VAT from Sony.

http://www.sony.co.uk/hub/1237479399273

There is also an advert on the Waterstones website.
http://www.waterstones.com/waterston...vat-back/2238/

[nowthenmobile]

Thanks. Waterstones were selling the PRS-350 for £130. So it is actually now slightly more expensive at £160 - £24.

I have had a bit of trouble selling my Sony PRS-600. I sold it on ebay and then shipped it to the buyer. As soon as he received it he said that it had frozen and that he couldn't even reset it. It worked the whole time I had it. I just can't understand it. To make matters worse the chap is now away for 3 weeks and unable to return it. It's the first time I have ever sold anything on ebay and it has gone horribly wrong. It makes me look like a crook...and if it really is broken then I have just lost a lot of money.

[Bookworm_Girl]

Wow. I am really sorry to read of your troubles! I have bought on ebay without problems but never tried to sell anything. His story sounds suspect if he says it doesn't work and he can't return it.... Does ebay have any kind of recourse for the buyer/seller to resolve the issue? I sure hope it works out for you.