Moral and Ethical Norms Regarding Book Sharing - Page 2

Cinisajoy · 09-20-2017, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deskisamess

You could turn on Parental Controls which would prevent them from shopping.

I forgot about that.

AnotherCat · 09-20-2017, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thrasher

...How about lending your e-reader with a book loaded on to a friend? Is that OK? And if it is, how would this differ from removing DRM from the book and sending your friend an ePub copy of the book to read?

I think if I owned the rights for the book I would be delighted and regard it as good free advertising - that is if one assumes by the fact of your lending your reader with the book that the person lent to may not have a reader and through using yours be impressed and trapped

into the ebook world.

Under those same circumstances if I was Amazon I would be over the moon because it may result in a Kindle sold to the friend and ebook sales to follow.

Of course, it may be that ones friend has an ereader already so the friend is just getting a free read and no future sales opportunities created for me; well the world is not perfect and, advertising ends up in the laps of those who have bought already and so the cost of putting it in their faces is lost, but that is no reason not to advertise.

Philippe D. · 09-21-2017, 05:39 AM

I don't know what the terms of use, and the laws of various countries, say in this matter; I don't think there should be any problem with lending your physical ereader to someone, though of course it would typically make it possible for them to copy the contents, and it might very well be something the terms of use of this or that ebook seller would like to forbid. Oh well.

Morally, ethically? Book sharing should be encouraged, of course - as long as we're talking about lending your reader, or even a copy of an ebook you liked and believe the other person is likely to enjoy. Somehow one must draw the line somewhere; some weeks ago I declined when my nephew's girlfriend asked me if I wanted access to her collection of some 20.000 or so ebooks (not sure what the figure was; it was way more than I'll ever read in my lifetime).

(In the area around my home there are a number of "book-sharing boxes" where one is invited to leave some of their books, and anyone can pick them up for free. The one closest always has between 10 and 20 books in it - it looks like not many are really things I'd be much interested in, but it's clearly not "trash only". I don't know how one could implement a digital equivalent, though.)

pdurrant · 09-21-2017, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thrasher

Interesting. Do you know if it is against Amazon Kindle Terms and Conditions if you lend your e-reader to someone else?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhowell

I don’t know. Hopefully someone else can find a link to answer this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by barryem

I don't know if that's against Amazon's TOS but I have seen it discussed a few times in Amazon's Kindle forum and I've never seen Amazon complain. That's no guarantee they wouldn't care, of course.

I've asked Amazon (& Kobo and some others) about this specifically.

Only Amazon said it was fine to share books with friends by loaning a registered device. Everyone else said it was one purchase, one reader.

See this post for my question and the answer from Kobo and Amazon.

[EDIT]
I've found the original thread! See here.

crossi · 09-21-2017, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

If you loan your ereader, you are essentially giving the lendee permission to use your entire Amazon account.
Since it is a physical device, I don't think there are any restrictions.
You will be liable if they run up a digital bill.

sorry. deleted post

DrNefario · 09-21-2017, 08:17 AM

I feel I have agreed to the restrictive terms when I bought or borrowed the book - that's part of the reason I expect the price to be lower - so the moral question is whether I am happy to break my word, not what kinds of lending are acceptable.

I guess, though, I'd be happy with lending out an ereader with my books on it. (Morally, at least; I'm not sure I'd actually want to do it.)

I might be willing to break the DRM on a library book if I wasn't going to finish it in time, but I can't help thinking that's a slippery slope. Would I really then want to delete it when I do finish it? In practice I tend to just put the extra effort in to get it finished on time.

I can't see that it's ever morally OK to give someone a duplicate.

pwalker8 · 09-21-2017, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I've asked Amazon (& Kobo and some others) about this specifically.

Only Amazon said it was fine to share books with friends by loaning a registered device. Everyone else said it was one purchase, one reader.

See this post for my question and the answer from Kobo and Amazon.

[EDIT]
I've found the original thread! See here.

In general, Amazon seems to be fine with family sharing, especially if they have the same account. I maintain one account for myself and one account for my niece and nephew for ebooks and audiobooks. They share the books between themselves. I've been doing this for the past 5 years. Yes, that does mean that I've paid for the complete Harry Potter set twice, once for me once for them, but it seems like a fair compromise to me.

issybird · 09-21-2017, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNefario

I might be willing to break the DRM on a library book if I wasn't going to finish it in time, but I can't help thinking that's a slippery slope. Would I really then want to delete it when I do finish it? In practice I tend to just put the extra effort in to get it finished on time.

The frustrating aspect of time limits on OverDrive books is in comparison to those on paperbooks from the real (as opposed to virtual, calm down, folks) library. With paperbooks, libraries have policies and sanctions in place for overdue books which generally consist of a fine, letting the borrower put a price on his willingness to over the time limit. The repo man isn't going to show up at the door. But with OverDrive books, of course, the book just disappears - or rather, can no longer be accessed.

The slipperiest slope of all is when we try to force comparisons between pbooks and ebooks, as with this conversation!

Alohamora · 09-21-2017, 09:08 AM

With Overdrive/Kindle loans, it used to work to turn off WiFi and keep the book open, and you could finish the book after the due date. Does that still work on newer Kindled?

My library also has a program where they lend out Kindles loaded with 5 or 6 ebooks. The titles are past best sellers. They seem to structure the program to introduce people to technology rather than for the specific titles available.

pdurrant · 09-21-2017, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwalker8

In general, Amazon seems to be fine with family sharing, especially if they have the same account. I maintain one account for myself and one account for my niece and nephew for ebooks and audiobooks. They share the books between themselves. I've been doing this for the past 5 years. Yes, that does mean that I've paid for the complete Harry Potter set twice, once for me once for them, but it seems like a fair compromise to me.

More than fair. Amazon would allow you (I think) to set up Family library sharing between the accounts and share the books that way.

Depending, of course, on what other accounts you might already be doing Family library sharing with.

Philippe D. · 09-21-2017, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Only Amazon said it was fine to share books with friends by loaning a registered device. Everyone else said it was one purchase, one reader.

I'd really like to see anybody try to enforce this. "No, you can't let that person read your ebook over your shoulder!"

pwalker8 · 09-21-2017, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdurrant

More than fair. Amazon would allow you (I think) to set up Family library sharing between the accounts and share the books that way.

Depending, of course, on what other accounts you might already be doing Family library sharing with.

I started it before Amazon introduced family sharing. These days they seem to mostly use it for their summer reading assignments.

DNSB · 09-21-2017, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thrasher

How about lending an ePub from the library and stripping the DRM because you were not able to finish it in 21 days and you want to finish it?

Reprehensible. I'm on the side of the fence that says removing DRM from my ebooks is okay -- I have unfond memories of companies shutting down their DRM servers leaving me with useless chunks of data, the last one being when Microsoft turned off their DRM servers for Microsoft Reader. My opinion is that removing DRM from borrowed books is not morally acceptable -- they are a time limited loan and not your ebook.

DNSB · 09-21-2017, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNefario

I guess, though, I'd be happy with lending out an ereader with my books on it. (Morally, at least; I'm not sure I'd actually want to do it.)

You can borrow my ereader when you pry it out of my cold dead fingers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNefario

I might be willing to break the DRM on a library book if I wasn't going to finish it in time, but I can't help thinking that's a slippery slope. Would I really then want to delete it when I do finish it? In practice I tend to just put the extra effort in to get it finished on time.

A very slippery slope which is why I came to the decision that I would not remove DRM from library books. On occasion, I've upped the load time from my default 7 days but if I can't finish a book in 21 days, I'm never going to finish it. If I broke the DRM, it would be too easy just to keep the book -- what if I want to read it again? It really doesn't cost the library anything? Whatever other justifications come to mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNefario

I can't see that it's ever morally OK to give someone a duplicate.

Eeyup.

DiapDealer · 09-21-2017, 12:28 PM

I don't differentiate (RE morality) between DRM removal of "purchased" books vs "library" books.The potential for abuse is equal in my eyes. It all boils down to the ethics of the individual doing it. If I believe that people can strip DRM from their "purchased" books and not share them with thousands of their close internet friends, then I trust that some people are capable of honoring the terms of a library loan--even if they remove DRM for the purpose of format-shifting.

I firmly believe that the removal of DRM from personal purchases has led to many, many more pirated ebooks and copyright-violating loans than the removal of DRM from library books ever will.

"Honest" folk are honest. And nefarious folk aren't signing up for library cards and joining wait-lists to steal books. You can't say one way does no harm while simultaneously assuming the other way can't ever be done responsibly. Evil is in the eye of the evil-doer and nowhere else.

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09-21-2017, 05:39 AM	#18
Philippe D. Addict Posts: 276 Karma: 3600000 Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: France Device: Kobo Aura H2o; reMarkable; Onyx Max 2 Pro	I don't know what the terms of use, and the laws of various countries, say in this matter; I don't think there should be any problem with lending your physical ereader to someone, though of course it would typically make it possible for them to copy the contents, and it might very well be something the terms of use of this or that ebook seller would like to forbid. Oh well. Morally, ethically? Book sharing should be encouraged, of course - as long as we're talking about lending your reader, or even a copy of an ebook you liked and believe the other person is likely to enjoy. Somehow one must draw the line somewhere; some weeks ago I declined when my nephew's girlfriend asked me if I wanted access to her collection of some 20.000 or so ebooks (not sure what the figure was; it was way more than I'll ever read in my lifetime). (In the area around my home there are a number of "book-sharing boxes" where one is invited to leave some of their books, and anyone can pick them up for free. The one closest always has between 10 and 20 books in it - it looks like not many are really things I'd be much interested in, but it's clearly not "trash only". I don't know how one could implement a digital equivalent, though.)

09-21-2017, 08:17 AM	#21
DrNefario Wizard Posts: 2,100 Karma: 11315768 Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: UK Device: Kindle, Kobo Touch, Nook SimpleTouch	I feel I have agreed to the restrictive terms when I bought or borrowed the book - that's part of the reason I expect the price to be lower - so the moral question is whether I am happy to break my word, not what kinds of lending are acceptable. I guess, though, I'd be happy with lending out an ereader with my books on it. (Morally, at least; I'm not sure I'd actually want to do it.) I might be willing to break the DRM on a library book if I wasn't going to finish it in time, but I can't help thinking that's a slippery slope. Would I really then want to delete it when I do finish it? In practice I tend to just put the extra effort in to get it finished on time. I can't see that it's ever morally OK to give someone a duplicate.

09-21-2017, 09:08 AM	#24
Alohamora Evangelist Posts: 446 Karma: 8897438 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Device: Android phone, Fire tablet, ios phone	With Overdrive/Kindle loans, it used to work to turn off WiFi and keep the book open, and you could finish the book after the due date. Does that still work on newer Kindled? My library also has a program where they lend out Kindles loaded with 5 or 6 ebooks. The titles are past best sellers. They seem to structure the program to introduce people to technology rather than for the specific titles available.

09-21-2017, 12:28 PM	#30
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 27,553 Karma: 193191846 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	I don't differentiate (RE morality) between DRM removal of "purchased" books vs "library" books.The potential for abuse is equal in my eyes. It all boils down to the ethics of the individual doing it. If I believe that people can strip DRM from their "purchased" books and not share them with thousands of their close internet friends, then I trust that some people are capable of honoring the terms of a library loan--even if they remove DRM for the purpose of format-shifting. I firmly believe that the removal of DRM from personal purchases has led to many, many more pirated ebooks and copyright-violating loans than the removal of DRM from library books ever will. "Honest" folk are honest. And nefarious folk aren't signing up for library cards and joining wait-lists to steal books. You can't say one way does no harm while simultaneously assuming the other way can't ever be done responsibly. Evil is in the eye of the evil-doer and nowhere else.