Unreliabilities with title_sort in AZW3?

jjalocha · 06-20-2023, 11:19 AM

Hello, this is my first post, so let me start thanking everyone involved with Calibre development for the amazing, titanic job!

I am trying to set the title_sort metadata parameter for AZW3 ebooks (starting from EPUB), but the results have proven extremely weird. (Other fields and EPUB work as expected.)

With Python API (calibre.ebooks.metadata.meta set_metadata()):
This is ignored. (Works in EPUB. Works for other fields in AZW3.)

With ebook-meta --title-sort:
This is ignored. (Works in EPUB. Works for other fields in AZW3.)

With <dc:title opf:file-as="???">:
This is recognized in EPUB, but is not transferred to AZW3 (using ebook-convert).

With <meta name="calibre:title_sort">:
This works SOMETIMES using ebook-convert.
This never works using ebook-convert --read-metadata-from-opf.

This whole thing is so weird that I really don’t know how to approach it.
I will gladly file a bug report if you think it qualifies as a bug.
I can also take my thread somewhere else, if necessary. (?)

Do you have any ideas?
Thanks in advance!

jhowell · 06-20-2023, 02:41 PM

Kindle ebook formats have author and title fields but no separate author sort or title sort.

The MobileRead wiki has an article that shows the actual metadata that can be present in KF8 (azw3) format.

jjalocha · 06-20-2023, 03:11 PM

Hello jhowell,
Thanks so much for your reply!

I can’t square this info with the fact that the <meta name="calibre:title_sort"> + ebook-convert pipeline does sometimes (maybe less than half the cases) produce AZW3 output with a title_sort field.

I do now know how to include the author_sort information in the author field (using a "Surname, Name" format) for Kindle.
Does that mean that I can/should include the title_sort information somehow in the title field, also?
Still, this doesn’t explain the cases above, where title_sort does work in AZW3.

Or maybe none of this really makes any difference for me?
I am trying to get my Kindle (PW4) to display the books in a certain order.
This whole quest only makes sense if Kindle is actually able to do so.

Sorry if I am being thick, this has been a very long journey and this last stretch really goes over my head.

jhowell · 06-20-2023, 04:16 PM

Kindles create their own title sort based on the title set in the book. It is not something you can control by setting a title sort field. For example on my Kindle the word "The" is ignored as the first word of a title for sorting purposes.

On the other hand authors are sorted by whatever is present in the author field, which is usually in "lastname, firstname" format. However is it sometimes, but not always, displayed as "firstname lastname" on the Kindle.

jjalocha · 06-20-2023, 05:52 PM

OK, I can confirm that this is indeed the case with my Kindle, even for German (Das, Ein, etc.) and Spanish (El, La, Una, etc.)!
This still leaves open the mystery of the cases where title_sort is present in AZW3, but I won’t dig any deeper into this.
Since Kindle does its internal black magic thing, it makes absolutely no sense for me trying to coax out some special custom behavior.
Therefore, a HUGE THANK YOU! This was incredibly quick and helpful!

jhowell · 06-20-2023, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjalocha

This still leaves open the mystery of the cases where title_sort is present in AZW3, but I won’t dig any deeper into this.

I am curious about where you are seeing that. Are you perhaps relying on the calibre editor? That program shows an EPUB equivalent of an AZW3 book, not the actual contents of the AZW3 file.

jjalocha · 06-21-2023, 07:04 AM

As a preparation for this post, I researched the AZW3/title_sort situation as best as I could: I processed my whole EPUB collection with the 5 methods mentioned in my first message and analyzed the resulting AZW3 metadata fields.

In the cases where OPF contains <meta name="calibre:title_sort" content="???"/>, using ebook-convert (Linux command-line tool), the resulting AZW3 book contains a title_sort field in less than half the cases.
(When using the --read-metadata-from-opf option, this field is never read/generated.)

06-20-2023, 11:19 AM	#1
jjalocha Junior Member Posts: 4 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jun 2023 Device: Kindle Paperwhite 4	Unreliabilities with title_sort in AZW3? Hello, this is my first post, so let me start thanking everyone involved with Calibre development for the amazing, titanic job! I am trying to set the title_sort metadata parameter for AZW3 ebooks (starting from EPUB), but the results have proven extremely weird. (Other fields and EPUB work as expected.) With Python API (calibre.ebooks.metadata.meta set_metadata()): This is ignored. (Works in EPUB. Works for other fields in AZW3.) With ebook-meta --title-sort: This is ignored. (Works in EPUB. Works for other fields in AZW3.) With <dc:title opf:file-as="???">: This is recognized in EPUB, but is not transferred to AZW3 (using ebook-convert). With <meta name="calibre:title_sort">: This works SOMETIMES using ebook-convert. This never works using ebook-convert --read-metadata-from-opf. This whole thing is so weird that I really don’t know how to approach it. I will gladly file a bug report if you think it qualifies as a bug. I can also take my thread somewhere else, if necessary. (?) Do you have any ideas? Thanks in advance!

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06-20-2023, 02:41 PM	#2
jhowell Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,542 Karma: 84810789 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Tampa Bay, Florida Device: Kindles	Kindle ebook formats have author and title fields but no separate author sort or title sort. The MobileRead wiki has an article that shows the actual metadata that can be present in KF8 (azw3) format.

06-20-2023, 03:11 PM	#3
jjalocha Junior Member Posts: 4 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jun 2023 Device: Kindle Paperwhite 4	Hello jhowell, Thanks so much for your reply! I can’t square this info with the fact that the <meta name="calibre:title_sort"> + ebook-convert pipeline does sometimes (maybe less than half the cases) produce AZW3 output with a title_sort field. I do now know how to include the author_sort information in the author field (using a "Surname, Name" format) for Kindle. Does that mean that I can/should include the title_sort information somehow in the title field, also? Still, this doesn’t explain the cases above, where title_sort does work in AZW3. Or maybe none of this really makes any difference for me? I am trying to get my Kindle (PW4) to display the books in a certain order. This whole quest only makes sense if Kindle is actually able to do so. Sorry if I am being thick, this has been a very long journey and this last stretch really goes over my head.

06-20-2023, 04:16 PM	#4
jhowell Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,542 Karma: 84810789 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Tampa Bay, Florida Device: Kindles	Kindles create their own title sort based on the title set in the book. It is not something you can control by setting a title sort field. For example on my Kindle the word "The" is ignored as the first word of a title for sorting purposes. On the other hand authors are sorted by whatever is present in the author field, which is usually in "lastname, firstname" format. However is it sometimes, but not always, displayed as "firstname lastname" on the Kindle.

06-20-2023, 05:52 PM	#5
jjalocha Junior Member Posts: 4 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jun 2023 Device: Kindle Paperwhite 4	OK, I can confirm that this is indeed the case with my Kindle, even for German (Das, Ein, etc.) and Spanish (El, La, Una, etc.)! This still leaves open the mystery of the cases where title_sort is present in AZW3, but I won’t dig any deeper into this. Since Kindle does its internal black magic thing, it makes absolutely no sense for me trying to coax out some special custom behavior. Therefore, a HUGE THANK YOU! This was incredibly quick and helpful!

06-21-2023, 07:04 AM	#7
jjalocha Junior Member Posts: 4 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jun 2023 Device: Kindle Paperwhite 4	As a preparation for this post, I researched the AZW3/title_sort situation as best as I could: I processed my whole EPUB collection with the 5 methods mentioned in my first message and analyzed the resulting AZW3 metadata fields. In the cases where OPF contains <meta name="calibre:title_sort" content="???"/>, using ebook-convert (Linux command-line tool), the resulting AZW3 book contains a title_sort field in less than half the cases. (When using the --read-metadata-from-opf option, this field is never read/generated.)

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