Apple appeals to Supreme Court

[PatNY]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Of course they can, and of course they didn't.

The government knows how to crack a password, but they say an option has been set that would automatically erase all data if more than 10 failed password attempts were made. They claim they don’t know how to bypass this safeguard. Are you saying they are lying about this? How do you know? Are you saying they could bypass the “guard dog” and crack open the phone in no time but just like doing all this litigation for the fun of it?

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by PatNY

The government knows how to crack a password, but they say an option has been set that would automatically erase all data if more than 10 failed password attempts were made. They claim they don’t know how to bypass this safeguard. Are you saying they are lying about this? How do you know? Are you saying they could bypass the “guard dog” and crack open the phone in no time but just like doing all this litigation for the fun of it?

Did you actually read the other post I quoted as an answer?

Because I guess I could quote it again for you, but that seems a little silly.

[PatNY]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Did you actually read the other post I quoted as an answer?

Because I guess I could quote it again for you, but that seems a little silly.

Since what you quoted at the end was from someone else, I assumed you were replying to someone else, so I didn't pay much attention to it.

At any rate, it appears then that you are agreeing with me? Correct? And that you agree it is untrue or doubtful the government can extract the data, unharmed, without Apple's help.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by PatNY

...

Do you believe the right to privacy regarding cell phones is absolute? ....?

What I believe is that the individual citizen's right to privacy is supreme. I believe the government exists at the behest of its citizens not the other way around.

[crane3]

Originally Posted by kennyc

What I believe is that the individual citizen's right to privacy is supreme. I believe the government exists at the behest of its citizens not the other way around.

In line with that, I wonder how many absolute privacy advocates are also in favor of NO GUN CONTROLS. The implementation of gadgets to make it hard for someone to pull the trigger is also an invasion of privacy; what one does with their guns is their own business. Background checks prior to getting a gun is an invasion of privacy.

Guns can be used to kill; cars can be used to kill; knives can be used to kill; hands can be used to kill; phones can be used to kill by sending signals for the bomb, planning and even be an explosive device like pipe bombs.

And yet people are ok with privacy exposures/invasion by corporations, apps & telescammers. Actually, obama care is also an invasion of one's privacy dictating how one lives; then again people believe that using cameras to catch red-light runners are also an invasion of privacy by the government.

[HarryT]

Moderator Notice
Please take political posts to the P&R forum. Any further such posts here will be deleted without comment.

Thank you.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by PatNY

Since what you quoted at the end was from someone else, I assumed you were replying to someone else, so I didn't pay much attention to it.

At any rate, it appears then that you are agreeing with me? Correct? And that you agree it is untrue or doubtful the government can extract the data, unharmed, without Apple's help.

Actually, I am very much disagreeing with you.

Extracting data from a device, be it a computer or smartphone, isn't fundamentally difficult. (It might take expensive equipment only the government is likely to have, it might take a ridiculously long time, but it can be done.)

It is amazing how many people think their laptop is just as secure as their iPhone, because they have a login password on it.
Not true at all. You can just boot from a USB drive and view all the files in plaintext. Or if they locked the BIOS, pull out the hard drive and plug it into your own computer.

And that is the most basic, kindergarten-level data attack.
Once the enemy owns the hardware (and can afford to make noticeable changes like taking apart the device) they can do anything.

The FBI is under no obligation to run the brute-force attack against the password, on the iPhone itself.
AS THE QUOTE I QUOTED SAID, peel open the iPhone, insert probes into the disassembled bits and pieces, extract the hardware key using an electron microscope, dump the data that you wish to decrypt onto the banks of supercomputers they keep around for exactly this reason, and initiate a bog-standard brute force attack on the data.

Why on earth would a sufficiently determined foe bother following silly rules like using the officially sanctioned iPhone software just because the data started off on an iPhone?

...

The data will be unharmed. Although there is no guarantee that the brute force attack will succeed -- even without iOS wiping the data after x failed attempts, even when millions of attacks in parallel on banks of FBI supercomputers, a sufficiently complex password could take millions of years to crack. (A sufficiently stupid average one could take days or even hours.)
The iPhone itself will be a pile of scrap, yes.

[PatNY]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Actually, I am very much disagreeing with you.

Extracting data from a device, be it a computer or smartphone, isn't fundamentally difficult. (It might take expensive equipment only the government is likely to have, it might take a ridiculously long time, but it can be done.)

It is amazing how many people think their laptop is just as secure as their iPhone, because they have a login password on it.
Not true at all. You can just boot from a USB drive and view all the files in plaintext. Or if they locked the BIOS, pull out the hard drive and plug it into your own computer.

And that is the most basic, kindergarten-level data attack.
Once the enemy owns the hardware (and can afford to make noticeable changes like taking apart the device) they can do anything.

The FBI is under no obligation to run the brute-force attack against the password, on the iPhone itself.
AS THE QUOTE I QUOTED SAID, peel open the iPhone, insert probes into the disassembled bits and pieces, extract the hardware key using an electron microscope, dump the data that you wish to decrypt onto the banks of supercomputers they keep around for exactly this reason, and initiate a bog-standard brute force attack on the data.

Why on earth would a sufficiently determined foe bother following silly rules like using the officially sanctioned iPhone software just because the data started off on an iPhone?

...

The data will be unharmed. Although there is no guarantee that the brute force attack will succeed -- even without iOS wiping the data after x failed attempts, even when millions of attacks in parallel on banks of FBI supercomputers, a sufficiently complex password could take millions of years to crack. (A sufficiently stupid average one could take days or even hours.)
The iPhone itself will be a pile of scrap, yes.

So let’s see if I got this right. Are you saying the government doesn’t really need Apple’s help; they can just break open the iPhone case, extract the key and the data and run the brute force attack to decrypt the data outside of the phone with a reasonably good chance to succeed -- at least as good a chance as if Apple were creating a back door for them? But that they won’t do it because it would involve “destroying evidence” as dgatwood put it? (By “evidence” I assume he means the phone itself, not the data inside.)

If that’s what you mean, I disagree. First off, if the FBI could do this with a reasonable assurance of success, I doubt the state of the phone itself after physically dismantling it to remove the data is of any evidentiary importance. I’m sure they extract hard drives from computers all the time by breaking open (destroying) the case, without any concern for the computer’s exterior condition afterwards. It is the data inside that is important. Not the phone or computer case. Any evidence on the outside of the phone (or computer) such as fingerprints can be obtained and preserved BEFORE the device is opened.

Second, has what you suggested ever even been done on an iOS 8 iPhone by any law enforcement agency in the world? Aren’t you just talking a big fat hypothetical? Can you site a qualified computer expert or source who will agree with you that this is even feasible for the government to do in this particular case – and not just a highly theoretical, risky endeavor?

And so, if you are disagreeing with me, after all, as I originally thought you were, then I go back to my original response to you which was: If the government has as good a chance to retrieve the data without Apple’s help as with it, then why would they even be litigating this? Are they playing games? Is all this legal wrangling just for the fun of it? Was fighting with Apple in court over eBooks just so delightful they want to keep forcing these expensive legal encounters at taxpayers’ expense?

[eschwartz]

Because as you say it is risky. The theory is sound, but it is a lot safer to do so in cooperation with the people who actually built the thing -- especially because this may be breaking new ground. (I don't work for the FBI, how do I know whether they've done it before? )

Slipping up can easily destroy the data they are looking for, beyond all hope of recovery. They're hoping to take the easy way out.

...

They're litigating because they want to establish a precedent that tech companies need to help the FBI when it comes to national security matters. We've already said that.

[PatNY]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

They're litigating because they want to establish a precedent that tech companies need to help the FBI when it comes to national security matters. We've already said that.

Agreed. But I don't believe setting a precedent is their sole or primary motive. I believe it is to find a way to access the data with the greatest chance for success.

Keep in mind that my comments regarding the government's ability to hack the phone were in reply to a comment that asserted the government/NSA already had the capability, which is not the case unless you're talking about something highly theoretical and iffy.

[murg]

Originally Posted by PatNY

Fair enough. But there is no law which prevents Apple from helping the government to crack the phone. And if Congress were to pass a law requiring tech companies to comply with court orders to crack a phone in certain circumstances, would you support that law? Or only the laws you believe in?

Do you believe the right to privacy regarding cell phones is absolute? Here is a hypothetical: Last November, highly radioactive material went missing in Iraq. Just being in close proximity to this material could be fatal. The international community was very concerned, afraid that it could get into the hands of a terrorist group such as Isis. It was found a few months later. But, assuming it had not been found, what if someone with ties to terrorism were arrested in the U.S. and there was credible evidence he was recently in contact with the party that stole the radioactive material and they planned to make a dirty bomb and smuggle it into the country? The government is able to show a judge credible evidence of this, and they want the judge to order Apple to unlock the suspect’s phone so they can find out who, when and where. Would you still be against Apple unlocking the phone?

In this case, Apple could crack the phone, and hand the data over, without giving the government the uncracked phone. In this case, chain of custody is not that important, the actual data is.

Or are you saying that it is more important for the government to be able to prosecute a few people rather than save millions of lives?

[PatNY]

Originally Posted by murg

In this case, Apple could crack the phone, and hand the data over, without giving the government the uncracked phone. In this case, chain of custody is not that important, the actual data is.

Agreed. I don't think the government cares a bit about the phone itself. They just want the data inside. The problem is that Apple likely would never even agree to that.

Or are you saying that it is more important for the government to be able to prosecute a few people rather than save millions of lives?

Not sure where you are getting this idea from. The government would likely argue here their efforts are to potentially save lots of lives which is more important than protecting the privacy of a few individuals (the two San Bernardino shooters).

[Gardenman]

deleted

[Cinisajoy]

deleted. Hit the wrong button.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by PatNY

Do you believe the right to privacy regarding cell phones is absolute? Here is a hypothetical: Last November, highly radioactive material went missing in Iraq. Just being in close proximity to this material could be fatal. The international community was very concerned, afraid that it could get into the hands of a terrorist group such as Isis. It was found a few months later. But, assuming it had not been found, what if someone with ties to terrorism were arrested in the U.S. and there was credible evidence he was recently in contact with the party that stole the radioactive material and they planned to make a dirty bomb and smuggle it into the country? The government is able to show a judge credible evidence of this, and they want the judge to order Apple to unlock the suspect’s phone so they can find out who, when and where. Would you still be against Apple unlocking the phone?

I would, this week it's essential to stop a nuclear terror threat, next week it's to find your favourite pizza toppings.
This kind of access always escalates from "Just Once" to "Only in Specific, very rare circumstances" to "Needs a Court Order" to "Whenever we want".