Apple appeals to Supreme Court

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by tomsem

John McAfee has offered to hack the phone for free. Says it will take them 3 weeks. Hard to know what to make of that, but if that's possible then Apple's security is not as good as they say it is.

Exactly. McAfee is just a blowhard like a certain presidential candidate.

[murg]

Originally Posted by tomsem

John McAfee has offered to hack the phone for free. Says it will take them 3 weeks. Hard to know what to make of that, but if that's possible then Apple's security is not as good as they say it is.

How do we know if McAfee is not a co-conspirator?

[dgatwood]

Originally Posted by latepaul

It all depends on the system being used. The iPhone has to query the hardware for a key and even with the proposed software update that the FBI have requested there's an 80ms delay. Which means that if you use the already available 6-character alphanumeric passcode it would take 6.5 years to try all possibilities.

This is why the real solution is to uncap the CPU, use an electron microscope to read the hardware key, and then use external computers to crack the key in parallel. They just don't want to do that because it would involve destroying evidence. Unfortunately, there's probably no way around going down that road if the user enabled the 6-digit passcode feature.

If, on the other hand, the user used the default 4-digit passcode, it would take less than a month even with that 80 ms delay, so the only problems remaining would be A. preventing the device from wiping itself and B. disabling the exponentially increasing delay between password attempts.

[Greg Anos]

Or it might be never.

Depends on how smart the people were setting up the encryption.

There are ways to set up encryption totally impervious to brute force cracking methods. Howeven, I prefer not to discuss them. . .

[Shane R]

Originally Posted by tomsem

John McAfee has offered to hack the phone for free. Says it will take them 3 weeks. Hard to know what to make of that, but if that's possible then Apple's security is not as good as they say it is.

He's a loon.

[Shane R]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Or it might be never.

Depends on how smart the people were setting up the encryption.

There are ways to set up encryption totally impervious to brute force cracking methods. Howeven, I prefer not to discuss them. . .

The question of the day is: is anyone allowed to build a system impervious to snooping?

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Shane R

The question of the day is: is anyone allowed to build a system impervious to snooping?

Does it matter, in a world of DIY (Do It Yourself?) You wouldn't know it's impervious until you try to hack it...

[murg]

If I remember, the US Supreme Court has recently ruled that you don't have to give up the keys to encrypted files. The case involved a journalist who was interviewing either Assange or Snowden, and the journalists encrypted hard drives.

[rdfry]

Apple just needs to continue to say no for eternity.

[Barty]

Originally Posted by tomsem

John McAfee has offered to hack the phone for free. Says it will take them 3 weeks. Hard to know what to make of that, but if that's possible then Apple's security is not as good as they say it is.

I read how he said he'd do it. He talking out of his behind.

I'm pretty sure that the NSA has some zero day exploits they can use to load arbitrary code onto the iPhone to do what they want. Or use other trickier hardware intrusion methods. If national security were at stake, they could do it without Apple. Of course if national security were at stake, they would have come to Apple quietly and Tim Cook would have cooperated.

This is political. The FBI is using this as a test case. Apple could've quietly complied and set terms so that the FBI would get the data and nothing else. They could've put off the confrontation for another day and waited for a case more favorable to them publicly. But instead they decided to draw the line here.

I think the tech giants were deeply embarrassed by Snowden's revelation that they'd been handing over massive amount of user data to the fbi/nsa. Although this may not be the hill they want to die on, I think ultimately they will join Apple.

[PatNY]

Originally Posted by Barty

I'm pretty sure that the NSA has some zero day exploits they can use to load arbitrary code onto the iPhone to do what they want. Or use other trickier hardware intrusion methods. If national security were at stake, they could do it without Apple. Of course if national security were at stake, they would have come to Apple quietly and Tim Cook would have cooperated.

This is political. The FBI is using this as a test case. Apple could've quietly complied and set terms so that the FBI would get the data and nothing else. They could've put off the confrontation for another day and waited for a case more favorable to them publicly. But instead they decided to draw the line here.

I don’t believe the government has any way to crack the phone and ensure all data is preserved without Apple’s help. If they did, I think they would have used it by now. As for Tim Cook accommodating the FBI if national security were clearly at stake, I’m not sure he would, but it makes for an interesting hypothetical. In the San Bernadino case, it could be argued that national security is at stake because the killers’ motivations were fueled by international terrorists. It is not a stretch to think they had ties to those terrorists, directly or indirectly through intermediaries.

You’re saying this is political for Apple, right? Not the FBI. If you mean Apple, I agree. They are taking a very public stance here and drawing a line.

I am split on this issue and sympathize with both sides. But, ultimately, I think companies should be compelled to assist the government where there is a court order and under strictly limited circumstances – for example, when issues of national security and public safety are at stake and in murder investigations. Individual rights have never been absolute in this country and can be superseded when the greater good is at stake. This is such an instance, I believe. I think Congress may have to pass legislation to make the situation clearer for both sides.

To those who are against making Apple comply, would you feel the same way if your spouse, parent, child or sibling were one of those killed in that conference room in San Bernadino?

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by PatNY

....

To those who are against making Apple comply, would you feel the same way if your spouse, parent, child or sibling were one of those killed in that conference room in San Bernadino?

Yes, I would feel the same. This is not about individuals it's about law which protects ALL of society.

I would bet all I have that there is nothing on the phone that is useful to defend national interests that the FBI does not already know. The are simply using this as a flash-point to extend their insidious reach just as the patriot act was enacted in the daze of reaction to 9/11.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by PatNY

I don’t believe the government has any way to crack the phone and ensure all data is preserved without Apple’s help. If they did, I think they would have used it by now.

Of course they can, and of course they didn't.

Originally Posted by dgatwood

This is why the real solution is to uncap the CPU, use an electron microscope to read the hardware key, and then use external computers to crack the key in parallel. They just don't want to do that because it would involve destroying evidence.

It's also a lot of effort.

[robko]

Originally Posted by kennyc

I would bet all I have that there is nothing on the phone that is useful to defend national interests that the FBI does not already know. The are simply using this as a flash-point to extend their insidious reach just as the patriot act was enacted in the daze of reaction to 9/11.

Exactly! This is his work phone, not his personal phone which he destroyed. Chances that there is anything useful on this one is slim, but it makes a great PR for the FBI side to use the emotions involved to push for a backdoor. The cynic in me questions why they had Apple stop the possibility of the phone doing an automatic backup -- maybe they knew there was nothing they cared about on the phone and wanted to make sure Apple hacking the device itself was the only way they could get any info off it so they could use this case as hammer to get that access.

[PatNY]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Yes, I would feel the same. This is not about individuals it's about law which protects ALL of society.

Fair enough. But there is no law which prevents Apple from helping the government to crack the phone. And if Congress were to pass a law requiring tech companies to comply with court orders to crack a phone in certain circumstances, would you support that law? Or only the laws you believe in?

Do you believe the right to privacy regarding cell phones is absolute? Here is a hypothetical: Last November, highly radioactive material went missing in Iraq. Just being in close proximity to this material could be fatal. The international community was very concerned, afraid that it could get into the hands of a terrorist group such as Isis. It was found a few months later. But, assuming it had not been found, what if someone with ties to terrorism were arrested in the U.S. and there was credible evidence he was recently in contact with the party that stole the radioactive material and they planned to make a dirty bomb and smuggle it into the country? The government is able to show a judge credible evidence of this, and they want the judge to order Apple to unlock the suspect’s phone so they can find out who, when and where. Would you still be against Apple unlocking the phone?