Is today's SF too pessimistic?

[VaporPunk]

Originally Posted by xg4bx

to outsiders i'm sure the crime rate in america seems atrocious. but they fail to realize that we have 320 million people living here. many of our states alone are bigger and more populous than entire nations. we're actually doing pretty damn well considering our population size.

Sorry, but I couldn't let this go. Crime per capita in the US is amongst the highest in the world, especially violent crime.

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

I can understand that. I fear being tracked/watched. I fear losing the rights I have as a woman. I fear the corruption of our country by the general population being controlled by various fears and not by knowledge.
But I hope that there is something I can do as an individual. Of course, that is why I prefer my SFF to be more optimistic. Living in DC, I brood enough as it is.

But can't good, gritty SF raise awareness of these issues? Maybe thats why I prefer my SF to be a little dark, maybe some readers will have an epiphany & stand up and be counted on the important issues of today.

Gee, guess I'm an optimist after all.

[5thWiggle]

Originally Posted by VaporPunk

Gee, guess I'm an optimist after all.

Or else the giant spider/brain leech of an Alien Overlord on your head is injecting the Soma again....

[xg4bx]

Originally Posted by VaporPunk

Sorry, but I couldn't let this go. Crime per capita in the US is amongst the highest in the world, especially violent crime.

i stand corrected.

i'd argue that it's because much of the world has somewhat more homogenized societies, which we lack. no common language, no common culture, no common beliefs which lead to a large amount of strife when you have absolutely nothing in common with large swaths of your own country. america isn't a melting pot, it's a tossed salad with every group of croutons trying to soak up the most dressing for themselves. homogenized cultures usually run more smoothly.

but that's neither here nor there, i don't want to completely send the thread off the rails.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by VaporPunk

Sorry, but I couldn't let this go. Crime per capita in the US is amongst the highest in the world, especially violent crime.

That measurement is only an indication that the U.S. is top of that list. But how many people in the U.S. experience crime or violent crime, against how many people do not? That proportion is smaller than you think, and only seems big thanks to media coverage of the bad things, not the good. The crime per capita measurement is a perfect example of using statistics to say what you want to say (the U.S. is bad), or... being pessimistic.

(So, it's not really off-topic at all.)

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

That measurement is only an indication that the U.S. is top of that list. But how many people in the U.S. experience crime or violent crime, against how many people do not? That proportion is smaller than you think, and only seems big thanks to media coverage of the bad things, not the good. The crime per capita measurement is a perfect example of using statistics to say what you want to say (the U.S. is bad), or... being pessimistic.

(So, it's not really off-topic at all.)

Did you just dismiss numerical evidence in favor of anecdata?

I think almost everyone I know has "experienced crime". We just try to not think about it very often. Almost every woman I know has been raped or struck by someone at some point in her life. Most of us have also experienced violent theft; cars broken into, windows broken, home invasion.

Almost all of us have lived our lives knowing that going to the police will very probably make it worse. We live in a country where the commander of the Manhattan Special Victims Squad can say things like "I am betting nine out of 10 times, when a woman asks for a female detective the story is going to be untrue." (Source and source.)

Is the world bleak? Yes. Does its relative bleakness vary depending on the person experience it? Not surprisingly, yes.

'Course, that doesn't mean I don't like happy books to distract me from the dystopia outside.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

Did you just dismiss numerical evidence in favor of anecdata?

I think almost everyone I know has "experienced crime".

Nope: I simply challenged which set of data points was being used to make the point. In data presentation, spin is everything, and anecdata is used to make things seem worse, too.

I've experienced crime, too. I've never been raped or attacked as an adult (I'm also a 6'-2" African-American male), but I've been robbed more than once and involved in 3 car accidents.

However, these have been very isolated incidents; and in all cases, although the actions of the police may not have made things much better, they did not make them any worse. Overall, I count my life as a series of overall-positive experiences, even with the negatives I've experienced. Raw statistics would back that up.

As you say: It's all relative.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

That measurement is only an indication that the U.S. is top of that list. But how many people in the U.S. experience crime or violent crime, against how many people do not? That proportion is smaller than you think, and only seems big thanks to media coverage of the bad things, not the good. The crime per capita measurement is a perfect example of using statistics to say what you want to say (the U.S. is bad), or... being pessimistic.

(So, it's not really off-topic at all.)

So... if you and I and all my friends have "experienced crime" where are the "people who have not" that you say are out there, evening up the proportioning?

I guess I'm confused.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

So... if you and I and all my friends have "experienced crime" where are the "people who have not" that you say are out there, evening up the proportioning?

I guess I'm confused.

*sheepishly raises his hand*

Other than knowing people whose bicycles got stolen or whose windows were broken, my experience with any major crimes and/or police involvement have been limited to TV and newspaper reports. Either that, or everyone I know is just very tight-lipped about that sort of thing.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

*sheepishly raises his hand*

Other than knowing people whose bicycles got stolen or whose windows were broken, my experience with any major crimes and/or police involvement have been limited to TV and newspaper reports. Either that, or everyone I know is just very tight-lipped about that sort of thing.

Since the OP I was responding to said "experienced crime", I would say you have experienced it based on what you posted here.

But probably I misunderstood.

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

*sheepishly raises his hand*

Other than knowing people whose bicycles got stolen or whose windows were broken, my experience with any major crimes and/or police involvement have been limited to TV and newspaper reports. Either that, or everyone I know is just very tight-lipped about that sort of thing.

But that's still crime (but not violent, true).

In addition to violent crime, I've had bicycles stolen, too. 3 bikes to be exact. The last two someone climbed up three stories to get them. The police told us he didn't believe us at first. Of course, lots of broken windows but luckily no home invasions. I pray it will stay that way. Home invasions here tend to end with dead women.

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

*sheepishly raises his hand*

Other than knowing people whose bicycles got stolen or whose windows were broken, my experience with any major crimes and/or police involvement have been limited to TV and newspaper reports. Either that, or everyone I know is just very tight-lipped about that sort of thing.

Most people's experience of crime comes from TV and movies. You can sit down and experience more crime on TV in an evening than most people will ever experience in a lifetime. People tend to think their neighborhood is safe, but think that other people's neighborhoods are dangerous. One reason for this is that they know their own neighborhood quite well, but they only know what they had heard people say about other neighborhoods.

[DiapDealer]

Sorry, to confuse. I was only addressing the "I and all my friends have experienced crime" aspect. I was assuming (probably foolishly) that that implied "in the first-person." What I should have said was; "I myself, have never been the victim of a crime." And I have several friends who have never been the victims of crime, themselves.

But how many people in the U.S. experience crime or violent crime, against how many people do not?

I'll consider myself one of the people who "do not" until I, or someone very close to me, falls victim. *shrugs*

I'm not trying to argue anything other than the fact that crime hasn't been a factor in my life, so far.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

So... if you and I and all my friends have "experienced crime" where are the "people who have not" that you say are out there, evening up the proportioning?

I guess I'm confused.

Then consider this: It's not just whether or not you've experienced a crime, but how much that has impacted your life in the long run. Obviously, that has a lot to do with the crime experienced, and its impact on you.

The crimes I've experienced have been minor, no harm was done (not even in the car accidents), and today they impact me in no way. Therefore, even though I've experienced crime, its effects were negligible, and I am still optimistic (and more careful) rather than pessimistic.

And my assertion is that there are more people like me, who have not been adversely impacted by crime, plus those who have not experienced crime at all, than there are people who have suffered because of crime.

[Ninjalawyer]

Pfffft, according to statistics I live in the murder capital of Canada and yet I've not once (not once!) been murdered.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by Ninjalawyer

Pfffft, according to statistics I live in the murder capital of Canada and yet I've not once (not once!) been murdered.

Well, you jinxed it NOW.