Is today's SF too pessimistic?

[flipreads]

Well, first, I think what Stephenson is attempting to do isn't anything new. Jetse de Vries released an anthology a few years back, Shine: An Anthology of Optimistic SF.

Second, it also depends on the SF that you're reading. Haikasoru has been translating Japanese SF and some of them are optimistic in tone and nature. (It's also interesting to read at how their fears are completely the opposite of other cultures; we fear overpopulation, they fear underpopulation.)

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by flipreads

(It's also interesting to read at how their fears are completely the opposite of other cultures; we fear overpopulation, they fear underpopulation.)

As I said, fiction reflects the society and the time that spawns it.
Extrapolating from Japan's present (and several other european countries) one would in fact be perfectly justified in fearing a population implosion.

Along those lines: Asimov's CAVES OF STEEL (written in the mid-50's) postulates an overpopulated Earth that survives in beehive-like "giant cities" where New York runs 20 million people and the entire planet runs 8 billion. And the only way to feed folks is with massive "yeast farms" to supplement the robotic farms covering the countryside.

From the point of view in the early 50's, pre- green revolution, those were pretty good extrapolations. From today's point of view, not so much... not to yield the kind of world he intended. From today's point of view you'd need to at least double it since known technology has raised the bar on efficiency from the levels he envisioned.

Times change and with those changes we get different starting points for the writers looking to extrapolate.

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

That's fair, I guess. I tend to forget about group reads since I so seldom take part myself.

Some times they're great...other times...not so great. I'm getting pretty sick of them right now.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

As I said, fiction reflects the society and the time that spawns it.

Fiction can reflect society... or it can provide an alternative to society, in order to suggest a better way, or warn of a danger in the present way. Even in these cases, the fiction doesn't have to be completely pessimistic or optimistic, but offer some pessimism in some areas and optimism in others.

Take Star Trek, portraying a supposedly sunny future of exploration and friendly aliens, and a near-paradise of Earth; but only after planetary wars and collapse, and under constant threat from other aliens. As MrsJoseph suggested, it can be a very half-full/half-empty state.

[Tony1988]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

Well aren't you a glass half full kind guy.

Don't mean to be pessimistic. But as I get older I start to see things differently. There's more sadness than happiness in life and the universe in general. just a fact. Doesn't mean I don't have any optimism at all. Just. being a realist.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

So what is the method?

Nice try. (Read the book.)

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by Tony1988

Don't mean to be pessimistic. But as I get older I start to see things differently. There's more sadness than happiness in life and the universe in general. just a fact. Doesn't mean I don't have any optimism at all. Just. being a realist.

Are you so sure you're a realist? Are you so sure the world is so utterly bleak? That doesn't look realistic to me. The world isn't all puppies and rainbows, but it isn't a nightmare either.

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by Tony1988

Don't mean to be pessimistic. But as I get older I start to see things differently. There's more sadness than happiness in life and the universe in general. just a fact. Doesn't mean I don't have any optimism at all. Just. being a realist.

But it doesn't have to be that way. Some of it is a self-fulfilling prophesy. If you expect the worse and all that...

[Ninjalawyer]

Meh, saying there's a potential for a bright future is hardly unrealistic. Stephen Pinker's latest book describes (quite convincingly) how worldwide violence is declining and has, in fact, been on the decline for over a hundred years; books like "Abundance" and even Kurzweill's "The Singularity is Near" describe bright futures made possible by disruptive technologies and an accelerating pace of technological development.

So far, neither the utopias nor the dystopias predicted by science fiction or pop science have come to pass. That said though, my favourite scifi books take place in dystopias (Canticle for Leibowitz, 1984, etc.); misery makes for a more interesting read.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Fiction can reflect society... or it can provide an alternative to society, in order to suggest a better way, or warn of a danger in the present way. Even in these cases, the fiction doesn't have to be completely pessimistic or optimistic, but offer some pessimism in some areas and optimism in others.

Take Star Trek, portraying a supposedly sunny future of exploration and friendly aliens, and a near-paradise of Earth; but only after planetary wars and collapse, and under constant threat from other aliens. As MrsJoseph suggested, it can be a very half-full/half-empty state.

All true.
But people write about things they consider significant and they extrapolate from what they themselves experience or know. Even when trying to present an alternative, that alternative will be reflection/derivative of the society they come from.

I don't think very many people can divorce themselves entirely from their society and its mores and ethics, its concerns and aspirations, even when consciously trying to distance themselves from them. They'll still filter through.

As you point out, even a series about a bright sunny future like STAR TREK felt compelled to address the issues of the time like the cold war, racism, etc to make themselves relevant and accessible to their audience. Similarly, their technological vision had perforce to be built around the trends and tropes of their times.

Or, look at classic adventure SF which in more recent times has been criticized for being militaristic and authoritarian, even fascistic by some; people who conveniently forget most of it was written during a time of war (imminent, current, or recently concluded), when even the most democratic and individualistic of societies was forced to close ranks and surrender to central authority to survive. One could hardly expect writers from such of a background, even when seeking to present an alternative society, to be totally free of their native culture.

We are all products of our times and culture and, no matter how much we might try, our works invariably reflect them in one form or another.

[JD Gumby]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

Are you so sure you're a realist? Are you so sure the world is so utterly bleak? That doesn't look realistic to me. The world isn't all puppies and rainbows, but it isn't a nightmare either.

Oh, but it is. Watch/read the non-mainstream news sometime. It is NOT good out there in most of the world.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by JD Gumby

Oh, but it is. Watch/read the non-mainstream news sometime. It is NOT good out there in most of the world.

The news doesn't report everything... only what is sensationalist enough to keep people's attention and garner ratings. Although it seems as though the world is filled with constant atrocities, the fact of the matter is that acts of kindness and justice far outnumber the acts of injustice and nastiness you see on CNN and your local news stations.

How many people who survive car accidents are reported? How many samaritans' donations documented? How many children saved from starvation? How many conflicts averted by the local police, or concerned neighbors? How many pets saved from abusive owners? Trust me, they are out there in droves, and if they at least got equal time on TV, you'd know that this world isn't nearly as bad as the news services would have you believe.

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by JD Gumby

Oh, but it is. Watch/read the non-mainstream news sometime. It is NOT good out there in most of the world.

Compared to what exactly? I'm at least as well-informed as you are, but get some perspective.

[xg4bx]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

The news doesn't report everything... only what is sensationalist enough to keep people's attention and garner ratings. Although it seems as though the world is filled with constant atrocities, the fact of the matter is that acts of kindness and justice far outnumber the acts of injustice and nastiness you see on CNN and your local news stations.

How many people who survive car accidents are reported? How many samaritans' donations documented? How many children saved from starvation? How many conflicts averted by the local police, or concerned neighbors? How many pets saved from abusive owners? Trust me, they are out there in droves, and if they at least got equal time on TV, you'd know that this world isn't nearly as bad as the news services would have you believe.

agreed. most things make the news because they're abnormal and freakish. someone who avoided being a victim of crime isn't as 'sexy' and lurid as a bullet riddled corpse. it's not newsworthy if a pet was adopted. it IS newsworthy if said pet savages their owner.

to outsiders i'm sure the crime rate in america seems atrocious. but they fail to realize that we have 320 million people living here. many of our states alone are bigger and more populous than entire nations. we're actually doing pretty damn well considering our population size.


i think i'm beginning to look at some of the 'grit' and pessimism in fiction as a reflection of my own fears. fears that are obviously shared by many authors. i don't really fear being attacked by my neighbors. i don't fear aliens, disaster or apocalypse. what i fear is the loss of knowledge, 'self' and my remaining freedoms to an all encompassing authority. and i don't think it's an unrealistic fear when i see the rising militarization of our police forces, the will of the people continually being subverted, increased monitoring and security presence, employers asking for facebook passwords, etc. you can find these stories on a daily basis, it's not 'tin foil hat' stuff anymore. those are my fears and my own pessimism, they just happen to come from a real place. no future in science fiction is as scary as the one orwell portrayed in 1984, huxley in brave new world and bradbury in fahrenheit 451. i think we're living in a combined version of those dystopias. big brother is taking over and we're too amused by the bread&circuses to care.

that's the pessimism i can identify with, not the 'everybody is a treacherous scumbag' sort.

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by xg4bx

i think i'm beginning to look at some of the 'grit' and pessimism in fiction as a reflection of my own fears. fears that are obviously shared by many authors. i don't really fear being attacked by my neighbors. i don't fear aliens, disaster or apocalypse. what i fear is the loss of knowledge, 'self' and my remaining freedoms to an all encompassing authority. and i don't think it's an unrealistic fear when i see the rising militarization of our police forces, the will of the people continually being subverted, increased monitoring and security presence, employers asking for facebook passwords, etc. you can find these stories on a daily basis, it's not 'tin foil hat' stuff anymore. those are my fears and my own pessimism, they just happen to come from a real place. no future in science fiction is as scary as the one orwell portrayed in 1984, huxley in brave new world and bradbury in fahrenheit 451. i think we're living in a combined version of those dystopias. big brother is taking over and we're too amused by the bread&circuses to care.

that's the pessimism i can identify with, not the 'everybody is a treacherous scumbag' sort.

I can understand that. I fear being tracked/watched. I fear losing the rights I have as a woman. I fear the corruption of our country by the general population being controlled by various fears and not by knowledge.

But I hope that there is something I can do as an individual. Of course, that is why I prefer my SFF to be more optimistic. Living in DC, I brood enough as it is.