Authors are protesting Amazon's 'read and return' e-book policy

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by jhowell

This topic reminds me a lot of the opinions around DRM. Whether to have a liberal policy that benefits consumers but is open to potential abuse by bad actors or a restrictive policy that punishes everyone.

In the case of DRM Amazon leaves the choice to the publisher. Perhaps this could be done for returns also. A large banner on the page stating, “The publisher of this book does not allow returns. You must agree to this before purchasing.” I doubt that Amazon would do that though.


(Added: I know that Amazon has been slowly adding DRM even if the publisher does not want it.)

I would like to see eBooks returned to Amazon if they are supposed to be without DRM but get downloaded as DRM infected KFX.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Deskisamess

I don't recall ever being able to use the cart for kindle books. I got my first kindle in 2009.

Same. I don't recall the year, but it was when the K2US came out. I don't ever remember having the ability to put Kindle books in my cart. Perhaps I've forgotten, but I don't think so.

[Critteranne]

Here's another case to show that you don't always know what you're getting -- and might have a legitimate reason to return an ebook. There is a popular indie author who put together a company and a team of approved ghostwriters and created a known brand. Under this pen name, I believe a couple of hundred books were published.

But then, it got messy. There was a dispute with another person who claimed that he was the real creator of the pen name and various series. So the books stopped coming out because of court cases. Then, one of the claimants said they had the rights again and started promising new books. Some of them did appear on Amazon and in other stores, although some appeared and then were removed. Like I said, a mess.

Another mess ensued. People who owned the original books said they disappeared from the Kindles and even their libraries. (Some still had the books in their libraries, while some did not.) At least some were able to get refunds for the books they can no longer access.

Most fans are not that "deep" in this. So they could lose access to their books and not know why. Or they could wind up buying ebooks they think are by the author (OK, the team) they once loved, only to end up buying books by someone the author did not hire or approve. Would they be eligible for a refund?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Same. I don't recall the year, but it was when the K2US came out. I don't ever remember having the ability to put Kindle books in my cart. Perhaps I've forgotten, but I don't think so.

If memory serves, Diap, we both got our K2's at about the same time--we yammered about them dog's years ago here on MR. And I think we decided that they were both at the end of '08 or beginning of '09.

I could swear, though, that I used to put Kindle eBooks in my Amazon cart. Dang, it's bee a while--and I've slept since then!

Hitch

[DiapDealer]

I remember the conversation about individual credit card changes for each ebook purchased being front and center for a long time. I wouldn't think that would have been the case if the cart was in play. They did eventually delay the charging of the card for a bit in case more purchases were forthcoming that could be included.

I've purchased too many ebooks from too many stores to be 100% certain the cart was never in play at Amazon for kindlebooks. But I sure don't remember it if it was.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Little.Egret

In order to discover a missing chapter you may have to "read" more than %X so automatically disqualified.

Hence the second half of my answer:

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

And for an egregious issue like a missing chapter, you could likely reach out to customer service or something like that.

Already if a book is put out with something like a missing chapter, it will be corrected and an update sent. Much like when you see multiple old reviews complaining of rampant spelling/OCR errors, yet when you read the book, they are gone.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

And why shouldn't buying a book on the Internet take place like in a bookstore?
I go in, sit in a corner and leaf through and read.
If I don't like the book, I put it back.

There are samples for ebooks. If you don't like the sample or if not enough is provided to make judgement, don't buy the book.

And there is a difference: literary works are finished products.
Music, theatre, etc. and films only become so through the performance.

Films are only finished through performance? I'm not certain what that even means.

A film is every bit as 'finished' as a book is.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The thing is, I've read some books where the beginning was rubbish and it got better and ones that started of OK, but became lousy. But you don't know these things from a sample. You don't get to the parts were it gets lousy or good.

And again: buying a book should not be a guarantee that you will enjoy the book. You pays your money, you takes your chances. Caveat emptor. This used to be as American as apple pie.

If I cogitate a bit, I could probably fit some more aphorisms in there.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

If I cogitate a bit, I could probably fit some more aphorisms in there.

How about "satisfaction guaranteed or your money back."

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Critteranne

Here's another case to show that you don't always know what you're getting -- and might have a legitimate reason to return an ebook. There is a popular indie author who put together a company and a team of approved ghostwriters and created a known brand. Under this pen name, I believe a couple of hundred books were published.

But then, it got messy. There was a dispute with another person who claimed that he was the real creator of the pen name and various series. So the books stopped coming out because of court cases. Then, one of the claimants said they had the rights again and started promising new books. Some of them did appear on Amazon and in other stores, although some appeared and then were removed. Like I said, a mess.

Another mess ensued. People who owned the original books said they disappeared from the Kindles and even their libraries. (Some still had the books in their libraries, while some did not.) At least some were able to get refunds for the books they can no longer access.

Most fans are not that "deep" in this. So they could lose access to their books and not know why.

That was an interesting read and all, but I don't see that it has anything to do with what is under discussion.

Or they could wind up buying ebooks they think are by the author (OK, the team) they once loved, only to end up buying books by someone the author did not hire or approve. Would they be eligible for a refund?

Too bad. Who wrote The Hardy Boys books? Who writes James Patterson's books? Who churns out the endless supply of William Johnstone books? The reader never had control over ghostwriters or knowledge of who they are.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by jhowell

How about "satisfaction guaranteed or your money back."

"You'll like the way you look. I guarantee it."

Anyway, I do not remember ever seeing Amazon list that as a promise.

[issybird]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

There are samples for ebooks. If you don't like the sample or if not enough is provided to make judgement, don't buy the book.

And yet. If I were an author, I’d much rather someone bought a book to try it if they couldn’t be sure, especially if I were confident of my product. And even if I weren’t (taste is individual), what would I have to lose? The worst case scenario is that someone ended up not liking the book and bothered to return it, and I’ve lost nothing at all compared to the potential sale lost because someone couldn’t tell in advance. (And some of those sales will convert, too, because people forget or can’t be bothered even if they ended up not liking it. There’s also that ground between egregiously bad where the motivation to return is high, and garden-variety bad where you move on.)

The part about how more sales are made with a generous return policy is inconvenient to your high moral stance, so you continue to ignore it.

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

And again: buying a book should not be a guarantee that you will enjoy the book. You pays your money, you takes your chances. Caveat emptor. This used to be as American as apple pie.

First commandment in the Church of Zod. How many converts have you picked up? Here’s another aphorism: “you do you”.

[Gardenman]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

I just tried. I turned off 1-Click everywhere. But when looking at an ebook, it still says 'Buy now with 1-Click'

Same here

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by issybird

And yet. If I were an author, I’d much rather someone bought a book to try it if they couldn’t be sure, especially if I were confident of my product. And even if I weren’t (taste is individual), what would I have to lose? The worst case scenario is that someone ended up not liking the book and bothered to return it, and I’ve lost nothing at all compared to the potential sale lost because someone couldn’t tell in advance. (And some of those sales will convert, too, because people forget or can’t be bothered even if they ended up not liking it. There’s also that ground between egregiously bad where the motivation to return is high, and garden-variety bad where you move on.)

The part about how more sales are made with a generous return policy is inconvenient to your high moral stance, so you continue to ignore it.


First commandment in the Church of Zod. How many converts have you picked up? Here’s another aphorism: “you do you”.

I think I'm a pretty typical, high-volume reader on Kindle, particularly (also Kobo, but mostly Amazon). I try a lot of books/authors that I would not otherwise, because I can try and return if it's dreadfully bad.

I think that the Church of Zod thinks that when I talk about returning books, it's a whim or it is just because I didn't love it. That's not why I return them. They have to be pretty awful, or really go downhill after the first chapter or Act, for me to say "enough of this crap." (I've even not returned books from authors that I do know, that screw me and other readers over with sudden cliffhanger endings, which is a real pet peeve of mine.)

And I know that I'm not the only one that tries new (largely Indy/self-pubbed) authors. I'm grateful to Amazon for it--as a reader. (As a small business owner that is utterly dependent upon self-publishing for her livelihood, that's a whole other thang.)

Frankly, most of my customers (authors, for those of you that don't know me) think that the whole return policy is generally good for them. Sure, they worry that these TikTokkers will wreak havoc, but they know that they've found some devoted readers through the "try, buy and if you hate it, return" policy.

IF Amazon changed it to 7 days, or whatever, I'd have to significantly change my downloading habits. I frequently buy or dl books and don't get to them for weeks, sometimes longer. And who knows if I'd remember my impulse to try that author, a month later? My new tries tend to be impulse buys--I see a recommendation, run across some reviews, yadda and I buy one to try. If I couldn't return it if it were truly awful...well. I don't think I'd be as anxious to try them.

That's pretty much it. I don't think that there's anything particularly deep or meaningful around it. And it's a huge part of how new Indy authors find and keep those new readers, too. Would it really be better for them to join KU and give away their books, for zip, to hundreds or thousands, tryin g to find new readers, than to risk that someone like me--gasp!--might, might return a book? I mean...sheesh. That seems a pretty simple choice.

Hitch

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by issybird

The part about how more sales are made with a generous return policy is inconvenient to your high moral stance, so you continue to ignore it.

Why reply to your guesswork?

First commandment in the Church of Zod. How many converts have you picked up? Here’s another aphorism: “you do you”.

My first commandment would be 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you' but like many churches, my beneficent message is ignored by hucksters hoping to get rich quick