Why So Many Newby Writers Without a Device

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by sakura-panda

The point of the thread is that if an author is interested in their own product -- an ebook -- then it seems reasonable to expect them to have a device for using that product.

They do: they have a computer. They very likely also have a phone that can read ebooks.

I have no interest in people listing "Windows 7 PC" or "Dell laptop" or "iMac" in the device field. I assume ebook fanatics will list their devices, and less fanatic people might list a device--if they care, if they notice & figure out the profile settings, if they understand what it's asking for.

People who don't participate much might not realize how to change those settings. I don't mind if they drop off notices of books. (I kinda wish they didn't have the ability to start new threads except for in the Author Self-Promo forum and the Introductions forums until they had a certain number of posts under their belts, but that might be a coding issue; the forum settings might not allow that kind of fine-tuned restriction.)

[CRussel]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

Well, I'll second the upthread people. There are a few "community members" who I consider to be absolutely toxic compared to the 1 post, 10 karma folks. (And I'm sure there are people who feel the same way about me. )

So, yes, I don't consider the "who is a valuable member of the community" to be something countable by post count or karma.

Yup. And for those, we have Ignore User.

So far, only one has had to be ignored. But there are others getting close. And again, it isn't about post count, or even karma though that's a useful measure of something.

[Native]

As an author without a dedicated reading device, I thought Neil's post was a legitimate perception leading to honest soul-searching. But I think the analogy of selling cars though you don't use them, is off the mark. I'm not selling cars, I'm selling excursions, and to me the vehicle is less meaningful than the sights along the way. Neil and others in this thread have reminded me to appreciate the smooth ride though, and for that, thanks. I know there's a lot goes on under the surface. That's probably the way it is with most of us.

[fbrII]

Originally Posted by Hellmark

Well, sometimes there are valid questions to ask before buying, that may relate to something only experience may know.



For me, they don't have to own a reader. I read on my tabletpc, then my N800 before I got a reader. I just want them to have an interest in ebooks that extends past sales of their book. Ideally, I want someone to contribute to the community. Some places I've been, advertising your work was allowed, but only if you were considered a contributing member of the community. If you just came by to post an ad, it would be deleted. Something like that might be good.

No argument here

[Xanthe]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I'll take an honest (even if it is gratuitous) "Dine and Dash" over segue-challenged sock-puppetry any day.

"Hey, speaking of dangling participles, I just read this really cool urban fantasy by a brand-new author that I think you'd like."

Don't know if that is a swipe at a thread I started here:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=124517

The author participated in the thread because I contacted him and told him about it.

[queentess]

Originally Posted by Xanthe

Don't know if that is a swipe at a thread I started here:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=124517

The author participated in the thread because I contacted him and told him about it.

Highly unlikely. I think she was making a generic comment about how some authors (*cough* spammers *cough*) will try to insert an ad for their book into every single post they type, whether it fits the conversation or not.

[shibamistress]

Originally Posted by anjirlly

Thank you, Harry (and the other moderators) for the nearly invisible work that you do that makes MR an enjoyable virtual community to move about in. Many of us just show up and research or play in the setting, without perceiving or thinking about all the labor that goes into creating it, including Neil's hearty welcomes to newcomers in the Introduce Yourself forum.

I very much doubt that Neil was taking a stand about pre-emptively excluding people who don't list devices from joining the community. Rather, the absence of a device is a clue, especially when combined with a self-identification as a writer, that MAY signal a pattern of future non-participation. This pattern is likely to be far more visible to those who pay the closest attention, often those who are themselves putting in the most effort.

Such a pattern was invisible to me, until this discussion. Precisely because of the housekeeping that the moderators do, it's possible to easily avoid the authors' self-promotion forum, and I therefore have very little sense of their participation levels over time. But I trust Neil's and Harry's judgment in this matter, due to their very sensible voices, their roles, their length of experience, and the degree of care that they exhibit at and for MR. They are positioned to have a perspective that is not as accessible to the casual observer, and they are doing a lot of the work.

What I sense from Neil's initial post is frustration and a questioning of the value of spending his (very limited free) time welcoming newcomers who really have no intention of ever contributing anything to the community beyond announcing their book titles. Maybe I'm overempathizing from a feminist standpoint, but this would seem to call for sympathy with the frustration, appreciation of the past work, and brainstorming ways to distribute the workload more equably -- for example, by having those who appreciate indie writers' appearance in the forum do more greeting! (This is not a jab at anamardoll, who contributes in numerous ways.)

Unfortunately, the whole issue of who are "good" community members cuts a little close to the bone for many of us who lurk more than we contribute (like myself). This thread has thus raised many concerns that people not be excluded, e.g., because of an inability to afford a device. My default position is also to encourage inclusion, but it feels terribly lopsided to me not to also recognize that advocating on behalf of wide-open inclusion creates costs for the community that freeriders don't contribute towards paying.

Yes, I really agreed with this very thoughtful analysis. I was interested in the original post, and as a long standing member of several other forums, I have to say that it does annoy me when people drop in for a frantic question and then never come back. Or, in this case, when it seems they might only be using the forum for advertising. That said, so far I've ignored the self-promotion part of the forum entirely, so it hasn't bothered me. I am also very thankful for the work the mods do, though, and as I have occasionally noted spam in other parts of the forum (and reported it) I'm particularly grateful that those things are taken care of so I can enjoy the rest of the forum without seeing a lot of spam.

Originally Posted by CRussel

It must have been meaningful to at least some of us, quentess. Else why would you have 280k karma points.

Seriously, for those upthread who claim not to be able to tell the difference between community members and spammers -- Get Real.

And Neil's OP was a very polite suggestion that the drive-by postings by new authors who didn't even list a device might be spam, though he was far too polite to call it that.

Now, if they want to post in Self Promotions? No one objects, I'm sure. But here in General, or News, or any other location? Spam. And non-contributory to the health of the community. And it's the healthy community that gives us this wonderful place to be.

I don't even know how people get karma points! But it does seem clear to me that the no device issue is just one marker of what might be a nonparticipating person. Coupled with other markers (perhaps the few posts, etc.) I would begin to suspect the same thing if I were around enough to notice such things. And yes, I'd be annoyed by it too.

That said, I was also initially baffled by the place where you enter devices. Do I enter what I think I'm going to buy? Do I enter my phone and laptop too? I've now got an ereader thanks to the help of people here, but I only list that and not my other apps. I could see how someone might put none simply out of confusion!

Originally Posted by Ditchleyportrait

you know what bothers me? not author spam.

the ppl looking for advice on which device to buy.

you can't figure it out yourself?!

Actually, no, I couldn't. I had no idea what the differences between the ereaders were, and what they could do, and I didn't know which people found more reliable or not. To me, buying an ereader is a fairly big investment, so I ALWAYS seek out other opinions for such purchases, and balance that with my own needs/desires.

I wouldn't be a new but hopefully contributing member of MR if it weren't for the fact that I got roped in by the kindness and helpfulness of people in the "which device to buy" thread. I wouldn't underestimate how many new members that thread might bring. Some will never do more that ask for help there, of course. But some will stay for the community.

[Frida Fantastic]

I don't really care about whether an author has an e-reader or not, what's more important for me is that they have some kind of quality control over their work. I hate it when authors have badly formatted books, and their excuse is that they don't have an e-reader. Psh, it's a finished product. If you can't handle quality control yourself, then you need to hire someone else who can do so. I'm not gonna deal with crappy line breaks regardless of price.

[odiakkoh]

Originally Posted by Phogg

If I use google to research a product I am unfamiliar with, I ALWAYS put forums in my search terms.

I want to hear the opinions of consumers, not paid shills. The which one should I buy threads are in their own section where You don't really have to pay attention to them if you are uninterested.

Since you are the type of person I said didn't bother me I'm not quite sure what the point of your post is.

[rkomar]

For me, the ebook/gadget part of the forum is important, but it wouldn't be enough to keep me coming back so often. I also enjoy following the threads on reading in general, genres, libraries, reading habits, reading recommendations,... all those things that are so interesting to book-lovers. It is the fact that this is a community of readers that really makes me feel at home here and interested in everyone's comments. I think someone who doesn't have an e-reader could still contribute to many threads, and I hope they wouldn't be ostracized for not owning a gadget.

I know that Neil was complaining about spammers rather than gadget-less forum members, but I got a bit nervous when it looked like gadget-ownership was coming up in some other comments as a method of filtering "undesirables" out.

[Xanthe]

Authors are not always the techiest people around (I have a friend who's a writer who finally connected her speakers to her computer for the first time, and gave up dial-up for broadband this past year ), so I'm not going to look askance at one who doesn't list an ereader. But if I were an author, and my books were being made available in electronic versions, I would damn sure want to be able to see how they display in the various formats and what the reading experience is like on an ereader. So I would get myself at least one.

===================

@queentess - Thanks for clearing that up.

[anamardoll]

Can we just rename this thread "Things I Hate About People"?

I've never seen an awkward book plug/segue on MR, but I FREAKING HATE IT when newbies come on the forum and spill their soda onto my posts. Like, WTF. Seriously.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Xanthe

Don't know if that is a swipe at a thread I started here:

Nope. No specific swipes intended. I only used the term "Urban fantasy" because it just seems to be the genre that attracts the most sock-puppet promos.

Originally Posted by queentess

Highly unlikely. I think she was making a generic comment about how some authors (*cough* spammers *cough*) will try to insert an ad for their book into every single post they type, whether it fits the conversation or not.

Queentess has accurately portrayed my intentions (if not my gender )

[jersysman]

Originally Posted by Frida Fantastic

I don't really care about whether an author has an e-reader or not, what's more important for me is that they have some kind of quality control over their work. I hate authors who have badly formatted books, and their excuse is that they don't have an e-reader. Psh, it's a finished product. If you can't handle quality control yourself, then you need to hire someone else who can do so. I'm not gonna deal with crappy line breaks regardless of price.

+1 That is exactly how I feel. If you are going to put any product out on the market, you should always make sure that it meets the quality control requirements that your market has established. For ebooks, they are pretty simple - correct spelling, grammar, and the general layout on the formats that are out there. To do this one would either have to have a device or hire someone with a device to ensure that these basics are met.

[issybird]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

Everyone thinks social media is the way to your audience and it is, but you need to do it properly. Just saying hi, check out my book is a sure way of making me ignore it for the most part.

Yes. There's an element of playing the game that most like to see. While there's nothing wrong with flogging your product in any venue so long as you observe the rules, protocol is more complicated.

Moreover, I think participation can be a good litmus test for quality. I don't hang out there, but I know there's a writer's workshop thread as well as a self-promotion thread and that seems like a terrific resource to me. Getting people (and a self-selected market for your product, on top of that) to beta your work out of sheer friendliness and helpfulness--why wouldn't you avail yourself of that? Instead of just showing up to say, "I just wrote the cleverest, funniest ebook evah!" I'm almost guaranteed to roll my eyes and think, "uh, no."

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I'll take an honest (even if it is gratuitous) "Dine and Dash" over segue-challenged sock-puppetry any day.

"Hey, speaking of dangling participles, I just read this really cool urban fantasy by a brand-new author that I think you'd like."

And it's always effective when you treat your potential market like idiots, too.