Why So Many Newby Writers Without a Device

[Ditchleyportrait]

[Hellmark]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

I know it's going to utterly shock the MR community to tell them this, but some people who read eBooks read them solely on their computers. Since "device" reads as "Branded eReader", it's easy enough to leave it as 'none' instead of slapping in "Dell-brand laptop".

I've always took device didn't have to be a reader, but could be other things as well. I mean, I have my N800 listed, and you have your phone. The field's info should be better phrased though, for people to understand it doesn't have to be a dedicated device.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by Hellmark

I've always took device didn't have to be a reader, but could be other things as well. I mean, I have my N800 listed, and you have your phone. The field's info should be better phrased though, for people to understand it doesn't have to be a dedicated device.

Sure, but I'm also anti-establishment and slapped the phone in there for fun. I had more devices to list but I literally ran out of room. That was sad.

Not everyone blings out their profile, though, as I said earlier. I mean, I have a PRETTY AVATAR and a SEXEH SIGNATURE and I used links and everything. But I'm not, like, snobbish about it when I see people using the pre-set avatars.

[anjirlly]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Ah, if only they did . You only see where the posts end up, Rich. You don't see the dozen posts a day from such people that we MOVE into that forum, because the poster has posted them elsewhere: News, Reading Recommendations, or whatever.

Thank you, Harry (and the other moderators) for the nearly invisible work that you do that makes MR an enjoyable virtual community to move about in. Many of us just show up and research or play in the setting, without perceiving or thinking about all the labor that goes into creating it, including Neil's hearty welcomes to newcomers in the Introduce Yourself forum.

I very much doubt that Neil was taking a stand about pre-emptively excluding people who don't list devices from joining the community. Rather, the absence of a device is a clue, especially when combined with a self-identification as a writer, that MAY signal a pattern of future non-participation. This pattern is likely to be far more visible to those who pay the closest attention, often those who are themselves putting in the most effort.

Such a pattern was invisible to me, until this discussion. Precisely because of the housekeeping that the moderators do, it's possible to easily avoid the authors' self-promotion forum, and I therefore have very little sense of their participation levels over time. But I trust Neil's and Harry's judgment in this matter, due to their very sensible voices, their roles, their length of experience, and the degree of care that they exhibit at and for MR. They are positioned to have a perspective that is not as accessible to the casual observer, and they are doing a lot of the work.

What I sense from Neil's initial post is frustration and a questioning of the value of spending his (very limited free) time welcoming newcomers who really have no intention of ever contributing anything to the community beyond announcing their book titles. Maybe I'm overempathizing from a feminist standpoint, but this would seem to call for sympathy with the frustration, appreciation of the past work, and brainstorming ways to distribute the workload more equably -- for example, by having those who appreciate indie writers' appearance in the forum do more greeting! (This is not a jab at anamardoll, who contributes in numerous ways.)

Unfortunately, the whole issue of who are "good" community members cuts a little close to the bone for many of us who lurk more than we contribute (like myself). This thread has thus raised many concerns that people not be excluded, e.g., because of an inability to afford a device. My default position is also to encourage inclusion, but it feels terribly lopsided to me not to also recognize that advocating on behalf of wide-open inclusion creates costs for the community that freeriders don't contribute towards paying.

[queentess]

Originally Posted by rhadin

How come you are not complaining about those MR members who have been members for a couple of years but have near zero karma and fewer than 10 posts? Perhaps they are shy and prefer to follow discussions but not get drawn into the rancor that seems to rise on a significant number of threads.

Yep. I lurk way more than I post. 99% of the time I don't have anything original to add to on-going discussions. And even when I do post, sometimes it's just to say, "I agree with so-and-so upthread". Just because I post doesn't mean it's meaningful

[queentess]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Because it is the friendly, community thing to do? Because someday we might ourselves ask for help and hope to receive it in a friendly manner? Because the gas is leaking from our balloon and we'd prefer a soft landing?

And because the forums are public and show up on internet searches, so you're helping just one person, you're helping anyone who searches for it!

[queentess]

Originally Posted by Hellmark

If they don't have anything to read them on, then they're not fans of ebooks, and are just seeing us as potential sales and nothing more. For instance, the one example of the author trying to shill their books, but then stating that they don't actually read ebooks because they like real books. It can kinda be insulting.

I don't think a writer needs to be a fan of ebooks in order to sell ebooks. The author's goal isn't to sell you a particular filetype, it's to sell you their words and ideas. The only criteria for posting here on MR is that those words and ideas come in an electronic format. Someone who comes on here pitching only paper books is going to be beat down

[CRussel]

Yep. I lurk way more than I post. 99% of the time I don't have anything original to add to on-going discussions. And even when I do post, sometimes it's just to say, "I agree with so-and-so upthread". Just because I post doesn't mean it's meaningful

It must have been meaningful to at least some of us, quentess. Else why would you have 280k karma points.

Seriously, for those upthread who claim not to be able to tell the difference between community members and spammers -- Get Real.

And Neil's OP was a very polite suggestion that the drive-by postings by new authors who didn't even list a device might be spam, though he was far too polite to call it that.

Now, if they want to post in Self Promotions? No one objects, I'm sure. But here in General, or News, or any other location? Spam. And non-contributory to the health of the community. And it's the healthy community that gives us this wonderful place to be.

[Ditchleyportrait]

you know what bothers me? not author spam.

the ppl looking for advice on which device to buy.

you can't figure it out yourself?!

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by CRussel

Seriously, for those upthread who claim not to be able to tell the difference between community members and spammers -- Get Real.

Well, I'll second the upthread people. There are a few "community members" who I consider to be absolutely toxic compared to the 1 post, 10 karma folks. (And I'm sure there are people who feel the same way about me. )

So, yes, I don't consider the "who is a valuable member of the community" to be something countable by post count or karma.

[odiakkoh]

Originally Posted by Ditchleyportrait

you know what bothers me? not author spam.

the ppl looking for advice on which device to buy.

you can't figure it out yourself?!

Lol I don't mind the ones who have an idea but can't decide between their choices but the ones who haven't done a single Google search and say "I want x, y, z which one should I buy?" bugs the heck out of me. You can't spend 10 minutes Googling at least the well known brands? But I have that thread hidden now so I don't have to see any of it :P

[fbrII]

I think the idea was that if you are to use ebooks, you have to have something to read them on. If they don't have anything to read them on, then they're not fans of ebooks, and are just seeing us as potential sales and nothing more. For instance, the one example of the author trying to shill their books, but then stating that they don't actually read ebooks because they like real books. It can kinda be insulting.

If a favorite author chooses to make comments about their books or the publishing industry or their feelings on the future print books, e-books as opposed to simply shilling their book, I would see that as contributing to the community whether they owned an e-reader or not, even if they wanted to post their objections to e-books.

If an author does have an e-reader does that now entitled them to self-promote? Are there valuable members of the community who don't see any particular value in listing the brand of their e-reader?

I don't question the logic of if you want to sell books you should probably own an e-reader. On the other hand, I don't think anybody would seriously want to apply it as a litmus test or say people who don't own e-readers don't belong here or are not going to be able to or be capable of contributing to the community. Or as somebody said earlier you can measure somebody's contribution to a community by the number of their posts or the amount of their Karma.

Right?

[Hellmark]

Originally Posted by Ditchleyportrait

you know what bothers me? not author spam.

the ppl looking for advice on which device to buy.

you can't figure it out yourself?!

Well, sometimes there are valid questions to ask before buying, that may relate to something only experience may know.

Originally Posted by fbrII

If a favorite author chooses to make comments about their books or the publishing industry or their feelings on the future print books, e-books as opposed to simply shilling their book, I would see that as contributing to the community whether they owned an e-reader or not, even if they wanted to post their objections to e-books.

If an author does have an e-reader does that now entitled them to self-promote? Are there valuable members of the community who don't see any particular value in listing the brand of their e-reader?

I don't question the logic of if you want to sell books you should probably own an e-reader. On the other hand, I don't think anybody would seriously want to apply it as a litmus test or say people who don't own e-readers don't belong here or are not going to be able to or be capable of contributing to the community. Or as somebody said earlier you can measure somebody's contribution to a community by the number of their posts or the amount of their Karma.

Right?

For me, they don't have to own a reader. I read on my tabletpc, then my N800 before I got a reader. I just want them to have an interest in ebooks that extends past sales of their book. Ideally, I want someone to contribute to the community. Some places I've been, advertising your work was allowed, but only if you were considered a contributing member of the community. If you just came by to post an ad, it would be deleted. Something like that might be good.

[DAHayden]

Some authors still prefer paper for their personal reading but are marketing to both paper and ebook markets. I'm sure some writers don't read hardcovers or mass markets either. There are now two ways to read and an author can't afford to ignore either one of them.

Of course, other than a post in the appropriate forum announcing their book, why would they be active in the MobileRead community? Perhaps to see what part of their market is interested in? To talk about books in general, regardless of which format their read in? Hmmm... That's all I can come up with.

I read on my iPod Touch, and I'm hoping for a nice Amazon 7in Android tablet in the fall. But I still mostly read on paper because I've got a backlog of books that I haven't caught up with and that were gifted to me at Christmas.

[Phogg]

Originally Posted by odiakkoh

Lol I don't mind the ones who have an idea but can't decide between their choices but the ones who haven't done a single Google search and say "I want x, y, z which one should I buy?" bugs the heck out of me. You can't spend 10 minutes Googling at least the well known brands? But I have that thread hidden now so I don't have to see any of it :P

If I use google to research a product I am unfamiliar with, I ALWAYS put forums in my search terms.

I want to hear the opinions of consumers, not paid shills. The which one should I buy threads are in their own section where You don't really have to pay attention to them if you are uninterested.