You don't matter - and you never did

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by DixieGal

Good morning! I see we all went to bed angry -- not a good thing. The OP achieved his goal to incite a war. The more we keep this hate-filled thread going, the longer the OP wins. Let's put an end to it and chat about inclusive and useful topics in the polite and friendly way that MR is remarkable for.

Quite right - well said!

[Worldwalker]

Dixie, if you don't like non-friendly topics, I think you're reading the wrong thread.

I fully support your right to discuss only "inclusive" and "friendly" topics, but only when you exercise that right by choosing which topics you will read and participate in, not when you tell other people they must discuss only the topics you find acceptable. There are plenty of threads here discussing things I find useless or boring, or even distasteful. I avoid them by not joining those discussions, not by saying that people shouldn't discuss something which is clearly of interest to quite a large number of them because it's not "useful" enough for me.

[Ankh]

Originally Posted by DixieGal

Good morning! I see we all went to bed angry -- not a good thing. The OP achieved his goal to incite a war. The more we keep this hate-filled thread going, the longer the OP wins. Let's put an end to it and chat about inclusive and useful topics in the polite and friendly way that MR is remarkable for.

Truth to be told, if one ignores the pyrotechnic (YOU don't matter) of the original post, the question "can industry afford to ignore massive part of potential market segment" remains open. Just check out business practices, "agency pricing" specifically, of late.

The big names of the publishing industry do behave like we do not matter, and are waging an undeclared war on their customers, on us. They are offering what most of us don't want, a hardback edition at ever increasing prices, claiming that anything else would be... what was the phrase? Ah, "the death of art".

As we know it.

I can, obviously, afford my little war with Sony store and ignore their "we miss you" e-mails (well, I miss a firmware upgrade for 505, so I can sympathize). Can publishers?

Now, excuse me while I check Baen Webscriptions for this month....

[Doug Huffman]

Freebase Lee, see the quite analogous debate in the 'music'/RIAA arena.

Their market tells them that the 'product' is worth stealing only. My early Festivus gift was a half-TB HD of DRM free music.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by thrawn_aj

Ayou don't have to own an original Picasso to be an art lover.

I never said anything about "book lovers" but "supporters". If your enjoyment of art is limited to reading the coffee table books that others buy -- you may be a "lover" but you aren't a "supporter".

As it relates to the conversation at hand, I was specifically speaking of the new release hard back book crowd. Lots of us were NEVER part of that crowd -- and yet we want to dictate to the publishers what their pricing for "new release popular books" aught to be.

Well, we NEVER mattered before because we never purchased new release hard back books before. We don't matter now, because what we are willing to spend on a book does not fit the "new release book" price. The publishers aren't going to cater to US -- they are going to cater to the people that DO value the product such as to pay for it.

Lee

[leebase]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

The approach you are making, and ignoring when everyone is pointing out that you are wrong, is that only the hardback buying crowd matter. Not true. If that was the case we wouldn't have paperbacks. In fact paperbacks wouldn't be by far the largest section in book stores.

But it's those willing to pay the hard back price that give the publishers the largest amount of the income they earn. The rest of us can WAIT until after "those who pay top dollar" have gotten the chance to read the books when they first come out and are most desired.

Folks are demanding the "new book experience" for the "old book price". But they don't matter to the publishers when it comes to pricing for that "new book experience".

I kinda wish Amazon had made the other choice, the choice to have ebooks windowed after the hard back book. Then folks might actually get what is going on. They could pay the "new book experience price" at Apple or B&N, or wait for the "book has been out awhile" price on Amazon.

The publishers truly don't care, or need to care, about catering "new book pricing" to those who have NEVER been willing to pay the price WHEN there is a market already established of people who will.

Lee

[boxcorner]

Surely publishers are in business to make money, as much as they can, in whatever way they can. Like all businesses, they have to adapt to change. Whilst I as an individual may not matter to any of them, publishers cannot afford to ignore all their customers collectively. I imagine, somewhere in-between an individual and their customer base, there will be a critical mass of customers whose opinions do matter to publishers. Yes, publishers could choose to ignore the opinions of that critical mass, just as they could choose to ignore change and refuse to adapt. However, I expect they will try to do what they need to, to remain in business.

I remember there were similar discussions, a few years ago when people were still using film cameras. When digital cameras arrived, some photography die-hards maintained they would never catch on. Digital cameras virtually became an an overnight success. Those companies that chose to adapt to changing technology are still in business today. Some people still use film cameras, but there are fewer of them. Whilst the analogy with ebooks and readers obviously is not quite the same, I see some similarities in the dilemmas that publishers are having to face.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by Ankh

The big names of the publishing industry do behave like we do not matter, and are waging an undeclared war on their customers, on us. They are offering what most of us don't want, a hardback edition at ever increasing prices, claiming that anything else would be... what was the phrase? Ah, "the death of art".

Yep. I totally agree that your perception matches that of a lot of people. What I'm pointing out is nothing has changed. There was ALWAYS a premium price for new release books. There has always been a set of customers willing to pay a premium price to read the book NOW verses later.

No one was all that upset. It's just the way things are. It's also the way things are in a whole lotta other industries like movies.

It did not matter to the publishers that millions of folks weren't willing to pay the new release price. You didn't matter before, and you don't matter now. What matters is that millions of people ARE willing to pay the premium price.

How did this "business as usual" become "the publishers are waging war on us"? Amazon. Amazon decided to buy market dominance by subsidizing the price of new release popular books. Now the paperback crowd (folks like me) could live the good life of a new release book buyer on a paper back budget. Happiness all around.

Well, happiness except for the publishers who were witnessing the value of their business being undermined. So they stood up and STOPPED Amazon and put the "new release price" back into place -- a place that was lower than hard backs but higher than paper backs.

Oh the travesty! Oh the wailing! The publishers are doing us WRONG! We DEMAND our paper back price for new release books!

Well, hate it break it to "you" fine folks. You didn't matter before, and you don't matter now. The publishers are quite happy to sell their product for more than "you" are willing to pay because OTHERS are willing to pay that price. LIKE ALWAYS, you'll simply have to wait until the book is not as desirable as when it's first released and you'll get your "not as desirable" price. Just like ALWAYS.

Lee

[Ankh]

Originally Posted by leebase

Well, we NEVER mattered before because we never purchased new release hard back books before.

Wow. I always thought that a book, especially fresh-of-the-press-and-hot hardcover, is frequently purchased as a gift.

The first mythological being introduced in this topic was a "hardcover consumer", a person whose only supply of reading material comes as hardcover edition, paid at the top price, never library, never loan from friend, the one that never-ever buys or, heaven forbid, reads the book unless it is paid in gold. Now we see an opposite end of the spectrum, a person who NEVER bought a new hardcover?

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by leebase

Yep. I totally agree that your perception matches that of a lot of people. What I'm pointing out is nothing has changed. There was ALWAYS a premium price for new release books. There has always been a set of customers willing to pay a premium price to read the book NOW verses later.

No one was all that upset. It's just the way things are. It's also the way things are in a whole lotta other industries like movies.

It did not matter to the publishers that millions of folks weren't willing to pay the new release price. You didn't matter before, and you don't matter now. What matters is that millions of people ARE willing to pay the premium price.

How did this "business as usual" become "the publishers are waging war on us"? Amazon. Amazon decided to buy market dominance by subsidizing the price of new release popular books. Now the paperback crowd (folks like me) could live the good life of a new release book buyer on a paper back budget. Happiness all around.

Well, happiness except for the publishers who were witnessing the value of their business being undermined. So they stood up and STOPPED Amazon and put the "new release price" back into place -- a place that was lower than hard backs but higher than paper backs.

Oh the travesty! Oh the wailing! The publishers are doing us WRONG! We DEMAND our paper back price for new release books!

Well, hate it break it to "you" fine folks. You didn't matter before, and you don't matter now. The publishers are quite happy to sell their product for more than "you" are willing to pay because OTHERS are willing to pay that price. LIKE ALWAYS, you'll simply have to wait until the book is not as desirable as when it's first released and you'll get your "not as desirable" price. Just like ALWAYS.

Lee

[leebase]

Originally Posted by boxcorner

Whilst I as an individual may not matter to any of them, publishers cannot afford to ignore all their customers collectively.

What we have are tiered levels of customers. We have the "willing to pay a premium for just released popular books" and the "never been willing to pay that price" crowd. There are more gradations, of course, but to illustrate a point, I'm sticking to just these two.

Publishers care about both markets. There have been three main levels they've catered too with Hard back, Trade Paperbacks, and Mass Paper backs in descending price. It's the way it's always been.

eBooks come along and now there is no physical differentiation in the product. Add in Amazon's plan to buy dominance in the industry by subsidizing new release ebooks.....and the cheap crowd became convinced they are owed new release fiction at paper back book prices.

But such folks NEVER mattered when it came to new release book pricing. Never did before, still don't now. What matters in new release pricing is what the top line market is willing to pay. For them, ebooks at $12.99 to $14.99 still represent cost savings, it's still a lot cheaper than new release hard backs.

For those who NEVER thought books were worth $20 or more....your opinions on new release ebooks simply won't matter to the publishers. Never did before, still don't now.

Lee

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by leebase

What we have are tiered levels of customers. We have the "willing to pay a premium for just released popular books" and the "never been willing to pay that price" crowd. There are more gradations, of course, but to illustrate a point, I'm sticking to just these two.

Publishers care about both markets. There have been three main levels they've catered too with Hard back, Trade Paperbacks, and Mass Paper backs in descending price. It's the way it's always been.

eBooks come along and now there is no physical differentiation in the product. Add in Amazon's plan to buy dominance in the industry by subsidizing new release ebooks.....and the cheap crowd became convinced they are owed new release fiction at paper back book prices.

But such folks NEVER mattered when it came to new release book pricing. Never did before, still don't now. What matters in new release pricing is what the top line market is willing to pay. For them, ebooks at $12.99 to $14.99 still represent cost savings, it's still a lot cheaper than new release hard backs.

For those who NEVER thought books were worth $20 or more....your opinions on new release ebooks simply won't matter to the publishers. Never did before, still don't now.

Lee

That horse isn't getting any deader.

[Ankh]

Originally Posted by leebase

Publishers care about both markets. There have been three main levels they've catered too with Hard back, Trade Paperbacks, and Mass Paper backs in descending price. It's the way it's always been.

eBooks come along and now there is no physical differentiation in the product.

In addition, there is a very, very, very "strange" quality introduced by the arrival of ebook.

The publisher never-ever runs out of supply, it is endless. The initial investment lasts forever (no reprint costs, no worries about the quantity). No stock. The only risk is the one associated with the initial investment (will this sell, or not).

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald

That horse isn't getting any deader.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by jgaiser

What? The truth hurts?