Cover feedback please?

[Gregg Bell]

Originally Posted by Catlady

I don't know one person who's been to Somalia or outer space, but nearly everyone I know has been to London. And those who haven't been still know a considerable amount about it; it feels familiar from TV, books, movies, etc. Which suggests that a lot more people are going to be raising their eyebrows and throwing the book across the room if the details don't match what they know about London.

Nearly everybody you know has been to London? That's pretty cool. I don't know anybody who's been to London. (Guess I should be looking for new friends.) Okay, so at least the people who haven't been to London won't be throwing my book across the room. But seriously, I hear what you're saying, and I know I joke a lot, but I did a lot of research and did the very best I could to make it accurate.

[Gregg Bell]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Mind you, the dreadful inaccuracies in Diana Galbadon's Outlander don't seem to have hurt sales. (Well, except to me and anyone else who knows anything about Scotland.)

Bless you, Paul.

[Gregg Bell]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Yes, they will, if you get it wrong. If you say something that's slightly off, but not completely, they'll likely let it go. If you claim it's a "true story," and you put a crucial location in the wrong place, they won't let it go. It's all relative. Do you need to be Tom Clancy, on the 'Hunt for Red October?' No. But there's a bloody good reason that people--me included--couldn't put that thing down.



Ditto. If you're writing space fantasy or Space Opera, you can probably get away with a lot. You can have people have "anti-grav" magical stuff. You can make aliens appear. You can stretch the limits of the imagination. On the other hand, if you're the screenwriter for Gravity, you can't. (n.b.: that wasn't a movie that I enjoyed, but I'm simply making a point here. Please don't leap all over the technical mistakes in that film, thanks.)

Vis-a-vis your Ballerina--getting all of that right will be absolutely necessary. If you screw that up, you're likely toast.

By the way: I think your assumption that somehow, Americans won't read the book because the word "London" is in the title is kind of insulting. Not everyone in this country is some sort of slab-sided jingoistic nut-job that won't or can't read a book set in another country. I could name 20 authors off the top of my head (Elizabeth George, anyone?) without leaving my chair who write about locales, countries, climes, etc., that aren't in the US that seem to do quite well. My client Timothy Hallinan writes a series set in Bangkok, (the Poke Rafferty series) that was Edgar and Macavity nominated two years ago.



Well, I'm not sure that I agree with you. What type of cultural accuracy do you think would take precedence over factual accuracy? In fact, what's the difference in those two?

Back on topic: sorry, I don't love the cover. Too much murk, not enough GRAB ME on it. I get where it is, and all that, but...I simply feel that you can do better. I think we've gabbed before about this, and for genre (and even non-fiction), I'm a huge fan of Derek Murphy's terrific blog piece on Covers and Cover design: http://www.creativindie.com/8-cover-...-buying-books/ . I firmly believe that if you stick to his guidelines, you shan't go far wrong. I give this link to every client that doesn't yet have a cover, in the hopes that at least they'll read it.

To me, for what it's worth, the cover does not need to have ANYTHING on it that points directly to the story (e.g., something British or something at the Barre/Ballet). What matters is that it gets buyers to CLICK. Too many authors, IMHO, make the mistake of trying to tell their story on the cover, as if it's an IMAX screen, when it isn't. (When you read that article, look at the covers for Allegiant or Ignite Me, for example). I think, given you have a would-be Prima in the book, you should be able to find nicely creepy images that you could use, to convey a sense of dread anticipation. (P.S. Getty has one of a ballerina, in boots smoking a ciggie, that's hilarious. Not suitable for you, but...hey.) What about the usual toe shoes? Bloody toe shoes, abandoned toe shoes....or, this is one of the few times I'd think a silhouette might work, IF (big if) the rest of the cover was sublimely perfect. Getty does have another one, in B&W, of a girl in a ballerina's aspect, in a big, empty, abadoned-looking room/building, that might work...(don't know the plotline that well, so...guessing here.)

What about this one?: http://www.canstockphoto.com/woman-b...-15731395.html

I should think that that could be adequately creepy/tension-filled, depending on what you do with the rest of the cover...

Ah, well, back to work for yours truly. Enough goofing off.

Offered FWIW.

Hitch

Thanks Hitch. And I've got credits at Canstock. (They're good in that you don't have to use the credits within a year.) The photo is way cool but almost in silhouette. I'd have to think about that one. Thanks for the Murphy link. I'm going to study that baby and come back with a killer cover. I agree there is a lot of murk in the cover I've got. Maybe it would look decent in an aquarium though. But yeah, it's not like people are going to be looking at it in SeaWorld. And I've grown to like American Ballerina as the title. Nothing wrong with American Ballerina in London. Just American Ballerina is meatier somehow. Like Chicago: the title of broad shoulders.

[Cinisajoy]

As the resident interrogater, it is my job to make sure you get certain facts right. So you better get the Ballet correctly.
Now if you do choose a ballerina on the cover, make sure it is a classic well known pose.
Think Music box dancer.

[Gregg Bell]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

As the resident interrogater, it is my job to make sure you get certain facts right. So you better get the Ballet correctly.
Now if you do choose a ballerina on the cover, make sure it is a classic well known pose.
Think Music box dancer.

<waving the white flag>

[issybird]

Originally Posted by Gregg Bell

I did a lot of research and did the very best I could to make it accurate.

Originally Posted by Gregg Bell

Well, my beta reader seemed quite hostile about some of the things I wrote (that weren't accurate).

I've been sitting on my hands since I first asked how much you know about London and English English, but I've been taken aback by your response. To put it mildly.

Gregg, I want to put this gently, but once you lose a reader because of the anachronisms, you'll never get that reader back. Can you really afford to alienate readers who are disposed to be interested in your books, until they read one? Do you have such a large potential audience?

Your beta reader is hostile? That tells me all I need to know. This was someone who was predisposed to be helpful at a minimum. And to have a reaction of hostility to me implies that s/he felt his time was wasted and that the book can't be fixed. Your reaction is to get rid of the reader, when my feeling is that you should shelve the book.

Again, there isn't an infinite pool of people who are going to be willing to give your books a try. Could you chalk this up to a learning experience, maybe cannibalize the bits that work into another novel with a setting that you know?

[Cinisajoy]

Hey Gregg,
Let me tell you a little secret about readers.
We do care about the little details. Now I will admit I know nothing about London. I also know very little about the Royal Ballet. What I do know is you will have many dancers that pick up your book so you dang well better have the pertinent facts right or the reader will think "who is this idiot"
Oh wait really doesn't matter who this idiot is because you will be put on many "do not bother with this author again" lists. Not to mention at least one or two will write a review.

True story: there was a new author. His first couple of books were very good. He made the automatic buy and read list. (No I am not talking about Russell. He is still on my favorites list.) So anyway this author gets a lot of support from some readers. Well now, we get to his 6th or 7th book and it was a piece of crap. (Note, that is putting it nicely.) In the first third of the book, he screwed up several little details. Not to mention the info dumps and repeats from previous books. Then he just made readers sick and got the physical stuff totally wrong.
He got some bad reviews from previous readers and also lost several. He also will not be on a recommended list again.
It was so bad if I hadn't got it the first day on sale, I would have wanted my money back.

Oh you may have noticed I said first third. That is where I quit reading.

So anyway, don't alienate your readers unless you are independently wealthy.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Gregg Bell

Thanks Hitch. And I've got credits at Canstock. (They're good in that you don't have to use the credits within a year.) The photo is way cool but almost in silhouette. I'd have to think about that one. Thanks for the Murphy link. I'm going to study that baby and come back with a killer cover. I agree there is a lot of murk in the cover I've got. Maybe it would look decent in an aquarium though. But yeah, it's not like people are going to be looking at it in SeaWorld. And I've grown to like American Ballerina as the title. Nothing wrong with American Ballerina in London. Just American Ballerina is meatier somehow. Like Chicago: the title of broad shoulders.

The Murphy link is, bar none, the best thing I've ever read on commercially-viable cover design. I have a lot of clients, as you know, and a lot of them are utterly daft when it comes to cover design.

There are two kinds, really; those who say, "I need a man and a scepter and a dragon and a sabertooth tiger and a crown and a cave and a bat and, oh, yeah, did I mention he needs a magical staff?" Those are what I call the IMAX clients. They think of a book cover as the size of an IMAX screen, and they "see" the entire story scrolling across it. Wrong, wrong, and did I say, wrong?

The second type are the "it doesn't matter" type. Now, I tend to struggle with that bunch (in my head, I mean) because they simply don't "get" that as much as they want to believe it, the writing isn't the "ONLY" thing that matters. That's what I believed, too, when I first got into this racket--that the covers didn't matter, only the story or the book mattered. And I was absolutely, positively, 180-degrees DEAD WRONG. I was horrified when I realized that bad covers could kill fabulous books, and great covers could sell mediocre books. But it's true. People ARE like crows, and they pick up bright shiny pretty things. So...don't do MURKY covers, unless there's a compelling reason...nope, I take that back. Don't do murky covers, period. If the bloody story is set in a swamp, find something colorful about it to put on the cover.

Covers are absolutely critical. Particularly for an author still finding his or her audience, and astronomically so for a new author. Wanna be found? Need great cover, period.

Now, the other discussion: details, readers, beta-reader hostility, etc.

I'm one of "those." I'm one of those that will a) ignore small mistakes, like putting a given cafe on the wrong street, if the rest of the book is good enough to carry me along. But, I hate continuity errors, and if I feel that the author has taken his reader for granted, in not doing adequate research to support the tale, then I too will become outright hostile (particularly if I've paid bloody money, or worse, if it's a beta, not alpha, read, and my TIME has been taken for granted.)

True story: before Booknook.biz really came to be, when I was still sorta working here, there (with the real estate crash having killed my "real" career) and the next place, one of my to-be conversion clients asked me to EDIT, not proofread, his mystery. He's a wealthy fellow, who hired a ghostwriter/co-author, to help him write a 7-book series of mysteries.

The first book wasn't bad, in terms of plot. I felt that the characters, however, were positively DREADFUL. They could not have been more cardboard. I spoke to the client, and he told me some things that knocked me on my ass. 1. He doesn't READ. at all, for entertainment. (). 2. He and his "co-author" had come up with the characters' personalities and traits by throwing darts at a newspaper horoscope column, and using the various traits THERE, for their characters.

I was fairly speechless about all of it. I told him the truth--the plot for the first book was a good one, but the characters were flat and cartoonish, and the female characters were outright offensively crafted. (He had a female character that was thrown out of the "Bolshoi" because her BREASTS WERE TOO BIG. I only recalled this because of your book, but...needless to say, that was one of the nails in his coffin, as far as my editing work for him went. I was like, "really?") He blithely ignored me, and off we went into the next books, which progressively became worse and worse. This guy spent a FORTUNE on the co-author, video trailers, his website, publicity... but he refused to listen to a word I said (or anyone else, mind you) about how poorly written the books were. These "mysteries" didn't have any (mysteries); they were more like thrillers. There was no "detective;" no clues. No detecting. I finally quit working for the guy, because I couldn't take it any longer.

What did me in was this gem: he'd "poisoned" one of the characters, during a trip up a mountain. Several things were wrong. First, he Litvinenko'ed the guy. All well and good. But the victim died in MINUTES, not days/weeks. Secondly, although it took the characters hours to get UP the mountain, coming DOWN was accomplished in practically minutes, even though they were now CARRYING the dying/dead man.

When I explained to the author that Polonium-210 takes days/weeks to kill someone, he said "oh, okay, well XXX has fixed it." (XXX being the co-author). And he did--he made it "magical." Basically, they wrote one line saying that one of the badguys "made it 100x more powerful." It was ridiculous, and pathetic. (n.b.: he also had another book in the series, about how terrorists took a gold mine hostage, holding the "world to ransom over the gold standard." When I said, "uh, we haven't been on the gold standard in decades," he blew me off, saying "it's only a story.")

THAT is what will kill off a reader. I was positively insulted by all of it. He didn't know what a mystery WAS, even though he was claiming to have written and published 7 of them, in this series; he had no concern whatsoever for the intelligence of the reader; he thought magically making something "more" poisonous was an adequate solution to the problem of the Polonium; he blatantly disregarded time issues; the list goes on.

This is a long-winded way of saying, if the Royal Ballet is crucial to the storyline, as is the UK locale, make SURE that you've researched both enough to not insult the reader. I, too, worry a bit when you say that your beta reader was "hostile" to the story. If that hostility is about either your locale, the ballet, or how a person in the UK speaks, then I would strongly recommend that you take a step back. Maybe you should shelve it for 3-6 months, and come back at it fresh. That, or ask people in ballet, and in the UK, to read the damn thing, before you publish it.

When your reader makes a comment about the rhythm of a Londoner's speech, perhaps he means, in a roundabout way, that the dialogue isn't working for him/her. And it's true that someone in the UK doesn't sound like someone in London, CT, USA. There are different speech patterns, different slang, etc.

I'm not hazarding a guess as to whether or not the book is good or bad or..? I'm just giving you examples of what can really make a reader lose interest, or get angry. Fantasy is one thing; but a thriller or mystery needs to have some roots in factual aspects, to be believable, even if it's about some whackjob who is going to blow up the entire world. The supporting "stuff" has to be there. One Polonium mistake, or one timeline error, can yank a reader completely out of the story.

<snipped because I used it earlier, duh.>


FWIW.
Hitch

[Gregg Bell]

Thanks Issy, Cin and Hitch. That is all just fantastic advice and feedback. Guys, I am a reader too. I know what it's like to be blown out of a story by implausibility or inauthentic or inconsistent or inaccurate writing. I watch carefully for these things so as to not lose my reader.

It seems the word "hostile" was perhaps ill chosen. (Being prone to hyperbole as I am.) The beta reader provided really significant help and was not suggesting I shelve the book. When the book was first written I used The London Ballet as the place my MC was trying to get in as a dancer. That was a bad choice I was told. Not lofty enough. And hence the Royal Ballet. And she made several great suggestions. And the Royal Ballet is a very small aspect of the book. This is not a book about ballet. It's about an unreliable, possibly delusional, narrator who thinks she could be a prima ballerina. The Royal Ballet and the process of auditioning there hardly figure into the story.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Gregg Bell

Thanks Issy, Cin and Hitch. That is all just fantastic advice and feedback. Guys, I am a reader too. I know what it's like to be blown out of a story by implausibility or inauthentic or inconsistent or inaccurate writing. I watch carefully for these things so as to not lose my reader.

It seems the word "hostile" was perhaps ill chosen. (Being prone to hyperbole as I am.) The beta reader provided really significant help and was not suggesting I shelve the book. When the book was first written I used The London Ballet as the place my MC was trying to get in as a dancer. That was a bad choice I was told. Not lofty enough. And hence the Royal Ballet. And she made several great suggestions. And the Royal Ballet is a very small aspect of the book. This is not a book about ballet. It's about an unreliable, possibly delusional, narrator who thinks she could be a prima ballerina. The Royal Ballet and the process of auditioning there hardly figure into the story.

Gregg honey,
You think it hardly figures because you are not a dancer. It would be a major idea to any dancer.
It doesn't matter if it is one paragraph, one chapter or half the book, get that detail right or risk readers.

And yes the title alone will attract dancers and ballerinas.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Gregg honey,
You think it hardly figures because you are not a dancer. It would be a major idea to any dancer.
It doesn't matter if it is one paragraph, one chapter or half the book, get that detail right or risk readers.

And yes the title alone will attract dancers and ballerinas.

And anyone who took ballet, for anything longer than a few months.

Hitch

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by Gregg Bell

This is not a book about ballet. It's about an unreliable, possibly delusional, narrator who thinks she could be a prima ballerina. The Royal Ballet and the process of auditioning there hardly figure into the story.

If I picked up a book titled American Ballerina, I would expect a book with fairly significant content related to ballet.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Hitch

And anyone who took ballet, for anything longer than a few months.

Hitch

Or those who's best friend took ballet.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Or those who's best friend took ballet.

And those of us old broads who now do barre workouts in a desperate attempt to keep those icky saggy bits at bay...

I now return you to the original thread's channel..

H

[Gregg Bell]

I have got the message.