Let's reinvent the bookstore...

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

I've seen anti-indie blog rants from librarians that make Shatzkin look like an indiepub mouthpiece. Lots of bile.

She didn't appear to have a bias either way. She may have been dealing with budget constraints and gave me the brush off.

We have a new librarian this year but I don't know how receptive she is to indies. Our budget is less this year so I'm not hopeful.

[latepaul]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I still haven't run across an ebook store that comes close to the experience of when I use to go to B&N every couple of weeks to see what new books had come out. I'm not talking about the Starbucks, big comfy chairs and all that, but rather being able to walk over the the SF&F section, scan through the "New Books" shelves, then a quick walk through of the other shelves to see if some other title I might be interested in had been restocked. Then do the same for the other genres and subject that I am interested in. I might spend 30 minutes to an hour in the store and come out with 4 or 5 books.

I'm genuinely mystified by this comment. Are you saying you haven't noticed that Amazon allows you to browse based on genre and/or what's new? And what Amazon do other ebook retailers also do - although admittedly some less well.

Maybe it feels less like browsing because the selection is so much bigger?

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by latepaul

I'm genuinely mystified by this comment. Are you saying you haven't noticed that Amazon allows you to browse based on genre and/or what's new? And what Amazon do other ebook retailers also do - although admittedly some less well.

Maybe it feels less like browsing because the selection is so much bigger?

To me browsing means standing in a relaxed state, looking over the offerings and examining those that catch the eye.

Of course to many browsing means anything that you do with a web browser.

Looking at a blog with a group of books/reviews on a topic I am interested in is closer to me than pre internet store type browsing. Looking through a 100,000+ list on a commercial website is more like work even when it is narrowed down by search criteria.

I like having all of the choices we have today, and would not chose to lose them, but it does lack some of the things store shopping has.

Mostly I shop online for something I already want, where in a store I might stumble upon something I absolutely love, but didn't know existed. Or that perfect gift for a hard to buy for person. Of course I spend less money shopping online, but finding something that gives me pleasure is worth it to me.

And then there are those non functioning BUY buttons and having to get authorization to return etc.

I live 1/2 the year in the city and 1/2 in a remote community with a 1 room grocery store, so I shop mainly online in the summer and in the stores in the winter. Don't spend much money in the summer and go marginally insane the first week or so in the fall. Lots of fun

Helen

[latepaul]

I was thinking of browsing in the way I'd browse a B&M bookshop not "I'm using a web browser therefore I'm browsing."

Obviously there are differences to do with the physicality of the experience but apart from that it's not that different. Nearly every day I'll go to Amazon, click the links to the Kindle store and have a look at what's new. I'll usually check out the daily deal. I might look at the Recommendations and what's new or upcoming. I might just look at the top 100. And probably do it all again under one of the genre categories I'm interested in.

I don't "narrow it down by search criteria" because I'm not looking for something specific (there are times when I am but I'm describing "browsing" right now) I just click through the lists letting the titles and/or covers jump out at me as they will. It doesn't feel like work. It's often something I do to take a quick break from work.

The other difference with B&M stores is that I know I'm not looking at all the books. In the old days I would pretty much scan all the books in the shelves I was interested in. But even then that was a small subset of what was actually available and the bookstop had filtered it for me based on what they thought would sell. In effect Amazon is doing the same by choosing what to put on the front page but if I did want to dive deep into something obscure I could.

So that's what I mean by browsing and I seem to be just as likely to have a "happy accident" discovery as I ever was as far as I can tell.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by latepaul

So that's what I mean by browsing and I seem to be just as likely to have a "happy accident" discovery as I ever was as far as I can tell.

The topic dujour in some circles seems to be books people are embarrassed to be seen reading (as in, young adult or "kids" literature) and just yesterday a blog article on the topic focused on the guilty pleasures of reading STAR TREK novels. (Hey, some people feel guilt over the oddest things...)
It referenced a trilogy omnibus by David Mack, STAR TREK: DESTINY and as is typical these days, the reference linked directly to the book's Kindle edition at Amazon. Me, I wasn't all that interested in his emotional state of mind () but the book's summary and reviews did intrigue me.

So I went from reading a blog page to buying a book in two clicks--say, ten seconds. It doesn't get any more serendipitous than that.

And that is also, in a nutshell, why bookstores need reinventing, no?

They are no longer the primary way people find new reads (if they ever were) nor anywhere near the most convenient or effective. Because most of us are more likely to pickup a title we hear somebody say they enjoyed than one we see highlighted on the front table at a bookstore just because the publisher bribed the store to out it there.

Oh, the blog article?
Just in case:
http://bookriot.com/2014/06/11/books...d-read-public/

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by latepaul

I'm genuinely mystified by this comment. Are you saying you haven't noticed that Amazon allows you to browse based on genre and/or what's new? And what Amazon do other ebook retailers also do - although admittedly some less well.

Maybe it feels less like browsing because the selection is so much bigger?

Oh, Amazon has browsing, but since Amazon leaves it up to the publishers to maintain the catalogs and since shady people have figured out how to game the system, trying to see what books have come out in the last 30 days is an exercise in frustration and futility for me. I just went to Amazon, pulled up Kindle books, SF&F last 30 days and sorted by publication date. I'm now on page 5. I have yet to see a book that isn't either PD (or at least the author is dead and probably isn't going to complain about someone else getting paid for their books), Porn (Monster Obsessions Box Set: Six Paranormal Erotica Novellas) or self published drek. There are 5,542 books listed, of which, I suspect only 50 are actual new books from a main line publisher.

[latepaul]

What you're describing is a consequence of just a much bigger catalog. I'm not sure what you mean by "Amazon leaves it up to publishers to maintain the catalogs" are you suggesting they should not list everything?

In terms of wanting to filter out the "drek" I tend to sort by popularity or rating. It's not perfect but it means most "main line" stuff hits the first few pages.

[voracious71]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Great idea but it lacks the most important element -- the wrapper won't say Amazon.

I've noted that with many people it matters not whether Amazon is the best option, just that Amazon is the only option they will consider -- if Amazon doesn't sell it, they won't buy it.

I'm sure there are some like this but I shop around. At least 70% of the time though, Amazon has the best price. I also have Prime so that helps too.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by latepaul

I'm not sure what you mean by "Amazon leaves it up to publishers to maintain the catalogs" are you suggesting they should not list everything?

I'm guessing what they mean is the fact that some self-pub authors/small pubs deliberately mislabel the genre's of their books in the hopes of getting them in front of more eyes when folks are browsing. This happens at B&N and Kobo as well.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

I'm guessing what they mean is the fact that some self-pub authors/small pubs deliberately mislabel the genre's of their books in the hopes of getting them in front of more eyes when folks are browsing. This happens at B&N and Kobo as well.

Yep. Lots of indies and get rich quick types are gaming Amazon especially by changing the publication date on a daily basis so their book is always shown as just published. They also put the same book in genres they where they don't belong.

In addition, I'm not real fond of surfing the slush piles, like some seem to be. Most of the self published books are simply drek, not "choice". There is a reason that they are self published. I get that some people like that sort of stuff. Heck, Jim Baen use to allow people on his board to rummage through his slush pile and report any that they found interesting to him. It's not my thing and I get very frustrated having to scroll past page after page of that stuff.

There is no reason that I should be able to filter that stuff out, but Amazon doesn't support such filtering. I have tried going by popularity, but then most of the above crowd have also figured out that part of gaming the system is getting 6 or 7 of your buddies to give you 5 star ratings.

Eventually, some ebook store will figure things out, take advantage of technology and give customers a fully customizable shopping experience that lets you see the books that you are most likely to like. But that's going to take work and quality control. They can't simply push the work off on the various ebook publishers and authors and expect good results.

Amazon is a great experience if you already know what you want to buy. Not so good if you don't already know.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Amazon is a great experience if you already know what you want to buy. Not so good if you don't already know.

What does everyone think is the best online eBook buying experience (at an eBook shop) if you don't know what you want to buy before you go having a look around?

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

What does everyone think is the best online eBook buying experience if you don't know what you want to buy before you go having a look around?

I have three choices.
Not in any order.

Fantastic fiction
This has a new books heading, a new authors heading etc. New books doesn't mean newly published necessarily, if you look under kindle (and yes it should just say ebooks IMO)

My library (or yours I am sure). Sometimes I look by genre, or newly purchased etc.

Literature map. Type in an author and it will give you authors it thinks are similar.

Generally I have a reasonable idea of what I feel like reading, but sometimes I know what I don't feel like reading as I am in a rut. This is when new books, new authors, or newly purchased work well for me.

Helen

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I have three choices.
Not in any order.

Fantastic fiction
This has a new books heading, a new authors heading etc. New books doesn't mean newly published necessarily, if you look under kindle (and yes it should just say ebooks IMO)

My library (or yours I am sure). Sometimes I look by genre, or newly purchased etc.

Literature map. Type in an author and it will give you authors it thinks are similar.

Generally I have a reasonable idea of what I feel like reading, but sometimes I know what I don't feel like reading as I am in a rut. This is when new books, new authors, or newly purchased work well for me.

Helen

None of those are eBook shops. So they don't count. The answer(s) have to be eBook shops.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

None of those are eBook shops. So they don't count. The answer(s) have to be eBook shops.

Given the fact that you edited your post and added the qualification "at an ebook shop" several hours after the previous poster's reply, that's hardly a fair comment.

[latepaul]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Yep. Lots of indies and get rich quick types are gaming Amazon especially by changing the publication date on a daily basis so their book is always shown as just published. They also put the same book in genres they where they don't belong.

OK thanks for clarifying.

There is no reason that I should be able to filter that stuff out, but Amazon doesn't support such filtering. I have tried going by popularity, but then most of the above crowd have also figured out that part of gaming the system is getting 6 or 7 of your buddies to give you 5 star ratings.

It does annoy me that when you rank by rating a book with a single 5-star review beats one with loads of 4-stars.

Eventually, some ebook store will figure things out, take advantage of technology and give customers a fully customizable shopping experience that lets you see the books that you are most likely to like. But that's going to take work and quality control. They can't simply push the work off on the various ebook publishers and authors and expect good results.

Well I don't think it takes a lot of figuring out - you just mentioned the solution there. The question is: is the cost worth it? The amount of manual checking involved would be huge and therefore expensive.

That's if you maintained the current catalog. If you excluded indies in some way then it would be cheaper but then how do you make sure you're not filtering out the next Hugh Howey? And also whilst most of these indies may not sell more than a handful of copies, multiply that by millions and you have a very nice income that you'd be giving up.

Amazon is a great experience if you already know what you want to buy. Not so good if you don't already know.

Once again, I like the Amazon experience even when I don't know what I want. Clearly not true for you but it just goes to show that not everyone's the same.