Sick of Amazon Kindle books without Page Numbers...

[Tarana]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Why? An index, or references to other parts of the book, can entirely satisfactorily be done using hyperlinks.

Instructors usually tell students to "read pages 240-325 before next class." It's RARELY an easily definable section. I'm sure this will change in time.

Hyperlinks are fine when they aren't broken. I totally agree. In fact, hyperlinks are probably superior since they aren't subject to typos.

Also, I totally agree with you about the laziness of publishers. I'm currently reading a second book where all the tables are bonkered making 10-20% of the information unusable. The ebook cost more than the paper edition too! If I hadn't bought it 2 years ago, I'd return it to Amazon with my complaint.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Tarana

Also, I totally agree with you about the laziness of publishers. I'm currently reading a second book where are the tables are bonkered making 10-20% of the information unusable. The ebook cost more than the paper edition too! If I hadn't bought it 2 years ago, I'd return it to Amazon with my complaint.

This is one reason that I buy almost all my Egyptology reference books as paper books, even if they're available as eBooks. There are some types of book that just work better as paper books, even today.

[cvkemp]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Children are not the only people who have to write essays. Some of us enjoy writing academic articles even as adults .

And also the ones of us that had to write articles about the hardware and the software that we were creating. I am just glad I have retired and can now read what I want to instead of having to research about all of the new stuff that may or may not be out in a few months to years from now. I went almost 35 years of having no time to enjoy reading, because I was spending all my time researching technical stuff, and chasing after this or that certification.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by cvkemp

And also the ones of us that had to write articles about the hardware and the software that we were creating. I am just glad I have retired and can now read what I want to instead of having to research about all of the new stuff that may or may not be out in a few months to years from now. I went almost 35 years of having no time to enjoy reading, because I was spending all my time researching technical stuff, and chasing after this or that certification.

I know exactly where you're coming from. There's a huge difference between doing something you love as a hobby, and doing it because you have to for your job. For me, writing software for fun completely lost its appeal when I was doing the same thing day in, day out, for a job. That's why I enjoy my part-time study of Egyptology so much - it's a complete and utter change from what I do to make a living.

[QuantumIguana]

The only time they matter to me is if there is extra material, like notes and bibliography. The percentage shows the percentage of the entire document, while page number will show my actual progression in the book. If there are ten pages of extra material, it's nice to know my actual progress.

Page numbers in paper books are nice for class, but you have to be using the same printed version, or the pages numbers won't match.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

1024 un-compressed characters OF HTML MARKUP. Which helps very little, when the same rendered text can be produced with varying volumes of markup. Consider Kobo's penchant for surrounding everything with extra paragraph spans, and you can quickly see how 1024 characters of a Kobo book will never match 1024 characters of a different vendor's epub. Not to mention style parameters being used inline VS style primarily applied via CSS. Characters VS Entities. No, I'm afraid Adobe's 1024-characters-of-uncompressed-html = 1 "page" doesn't come close to providing a "one unit to rule them all" solution. For a character-count-based solution, nothing short of a rendered character count would suffice (which I'm sure is what Hitch was suggesting).

It is compressed. kepubs are not read using ADE. So whatever the page numbering used is not relevant. Also, you can download box standard ePub from Kobo and not bother with kepub if that's what you want.

Originally Posted by Jellby

Not exactly that way. If I remember correctly, it's one page per 1024 bytes in the compressed file (so changing the compression level does change the number of pages), and then the pages are more or less evenly distributed by displayed characters (or maybe just characters, so comments and HTML code would count).

Ah, the relevant information is in the wiki: https://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/Adob...s#Page_numbers

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Although I guess I could hear that EPUB is a less interesting target for those reasons -- not that I'd know anyway, I already said I don't care about fake page numbers.

ADE does not use fake page numbers. It uses computer generated page numbers that actually work very well. Yes, you can simulate pBook page numbers in an eBook with ADE, but I don't find that at all useful unless it's a reference book that you might want/need to do a proper reference from.

[Cinisajoy]

Ok I am now officially confused.
I just started reading 2001:A space odyssey on my k4.
The k4 tells me I am at 6%.
If I press the menu button I get
Page 3 of 297 ● Location 231 of 3318 with the progress bar at the bottom. It also shows the 6%.
The progress bar is also divided into sections.
In this case the sections are the parts of the book rather than chapters.

So, how is there a problem knowing where you are in a book?

[Dazrin]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Ok I am now officially confused.
I just started reading 2001:A space odyssey on my k4.
The k4 tells me I am at 6%.
If I press the menu button I get
Page 3 of 297 ● Location 231 of 3318 with the progress bar at the bottom. It also shows the 6%.
The progress bar is also divided into sections.
In this case the sections are the parts of the book rather than chapters.

So, how is there a problem knowing where you are in a book?

So, you are simultaneously at 6%, 1% (3/297=1.01%), and 7% (231/3318=6.96%) complete. Nice. I can't see how there is any confusion here.

I know why there are three different numbers but I also see why there is confusion.

Spoiler:

Using 6% as the base:
3/297 = 1.01% - This method is using a page map and typical page numbering doesn't include front (or back) matter in the page count. So things like the cover, title page, table of contents, a prologue sometimes, etc. don't count but they are counted in the 6%.
7% - I think the 6% displayed is the same value as this but rounded down instead of rounded up like we would normally do with something this close. By rounding everything down the only time a book shows "100%" is when there is nothing more to see. Otherwise you could be at 100% and still have several screens worth of information to go in the book. This method will show 99% until there are no more screens at all.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Dazrin

So, you are simultaneously at 6%, 1% (3/297=1.01%), and 7% (231/3318=6.96%) complete. Nice. I can't see how there is any confusion here.

I know why there are three different numbers but I also see why there is confusion.

Spoiler:

Using 6% as the base:
3/297 = 1.01% - This method is using a page map and typical page numbering doesn't include front (or back) matter in the page count. So things like the cover, title page, table of contents, a prologue sometimes, etc. don't count but they are counted in the 6%.
7% - I think the 6% displayed is the same value as this but rounded down instead of rounded up like we would normally do with something this close. By rounding everything down the only time a book shows "100%" is when there is nothing more to see. Otherwise you could be at 100% and still have several screens worth of information to go in the book. This method will show 99% until there are no more screens at all.

Yes 5% was front matter.
I meant the confusion was on how people can't tell where they are in a book.
Hold on while I check how many button pushes is a page.
Font size 4, line spacing small, words per line default, it takes 2 pushes to be a page. So we now know approximately 600 pushes(page turns) for the book.

This tells me that page numbers in an eink can be way off the number of page turns. So pretty much useless.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

This tells me that page numbers in an eink can be way off the number of page turns. So pretty much useless.

Nobody has ever claimed that the page number has any connection whatsoever to the number of page turns on the eink device. Its sole purpose is to tell you the corresponding page number in the paper book. Far from useless if you want to provide a reference to a position in the book.

[Dazrin]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Yes 5% was front matter.
I meant the confusion was on how people can't tell where they are in a book.
Hold on while I check how many button pushes is a page.
Font size 4, line spacing small, words per line default, it takes 2 pushes to be a page. So we now know approximately 600 pushes(page turns) for the book.

This tells me that page numbers in an eink can be way off the number of page turns. So pretty much useless.

Oh, I understand what you meant and agree with you but there are some people who can't handle any ambiguity even when it doesn't change anything. I just want to read my book!

There are issue issues when trying to reference a specific item in a book when two people don't have the same exact version. Or even when they do have the same exact version. We have dealt with it before and will continue to deal with it tomorrow. Some people really want there to be single, simple fix for it but I doubt that will ever happen.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by theducks

What is with all the permutations still being indexed??

All my readers include a search (I do wish there was a scope: section or all )
Setters
Breeds
Sporting

Ducky, my one twoo wuv:

Sweetie, it's not a concordance. An index exists for a reason. It's created by (hopefully) a reasonably intelligent person familiar with the book itself and the book's reading populace. It's to direct you to specific items of import on a given topic. Yes, the example I've provided is overly simplistic--why wouldn't someone just type "Irish Setter?" But there are many things that aren't that simplistic. We've done medical textbooks with thousands of pages and tens of thousands of indices. Who the hell wants to do a search for something in a book like that, that will undoubtedly return hundreds of incidences of the reference solely? You wouldn't.

AND, I'd point out (meant to also quote Shari about this), this is still the issue with doing what I mentioned--taking EVERY target, and putting in all the [Back to this][Back to that] stuff. In some books, you could have a list of 20 0r 50 or more "back to" items. It would be extremely disruptive for the reading flow.

The point of an index is, simply, that it's curated. If all we are discussing are concordances--every instance of a searched term in the book--then, no: why have an Index at all?

Hitch

[tompe]

Originally Posted by issybird

I like page numbers. Even though they're inconsistent, they track reasonably well within genres and they give me a far better sense of how long a book is than Amazon's reading time indicator, which doesn't reflect my own idiosyncrasies very well. I also prefer to do my own percentage calculation, which can differ significantly in a book heavy with notes and index. I even think I retain a book slightly better, when I can mentally relate the text to position in a book; the percentage doesn't serve that purpose for me. Finally, page numbers make it easier to switch between devices without syncing.

Lack of page numbers doesn't keep me from reading a book, but I prefer the experience with page numbers.

I agree with all that.

Plus at book circles were some have the paper book and others the ebook page numbers is very useful.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

ADE does not use fake page numbers. It uses computer generated page numbers that actually work very well. Yes, you can simulate pBook page numbers in an eBook with ADE, but I don't find that at all useful unless it's a reference book that you might want/need to do a proper reference from.

That's exactly what I said -- it uses fake page numbers.

Whether they work well or not is a matter of opinion. Since I find page numbers to be inherently inferior in determining how time left is in the book (should I wish to know), the only use page numbers have (for me) is as a "proper reference".
Which means pbook page numbers are the only ones with any use whatsoever.

P.S. Yes, computer generated pages on a medium where the word "page" is a non sequitur are indeed fake.
You've been denying it for a long time, and I have no doubt you will continue to deny it even after I post this, but I just thought I'd mention it anyway for the sake of conversation.