"Most e-books in The Netherlands are not paid for."

[Rbneader]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

I am sure losses on free sharing of copy protected eBooks had some share of the blame for this outcome.

Another thread active now on this Forum has more information on the Sony situation.

I am also sure this is just the first casualty. There will be more to follow. Depriving retailers, publishers and authors of their rightful fees does have an effect on the industry.

I had done a poll on this site some time ago with 173 respondents showing overwhelming use of Alf to strip DRM. That does reflect this forum and it may reflect the tendency of eBook users who are active in the hobby.

Finally, many of those "file sharing" sites REQUIRE uploading of files to be shared in order to qualify for downloading other free files. Thus, the "collectors" of those thousands of files may be on both ends of the sharing: uploading AND downloading.

For me I don't mind PAYING a fair fee for an eBook. The standard Amazon price of $ 10.00 per eBook is still a lot less than the old prices of $ 40.00 for a print book 30 years ago. I also do NOT need backups of any eBooks I buy. I buy them to READ ONCE and then discard them as I did with print books years ago from the Book of the Month Club. I only need Amazon to keep getting new eBooks for me to keep reading.

OK, point by point:

1) Sony's strategic situation has been terrible for a long time. Nothing about that situation supposed the idea that piracy played more than a minor part in Sony's decline.

2) Removing DRM doesn't mean pirating. Most of the people I know who go to the trouble to buy legally and remove DRM are the people who deliberately don't pirate. If someone feels piracy is OK, they're going to pirate, not bother to buy a book and disinfect it.

3) It's interesting to hear about how pirate sites work. I wouldn't know, since I have bought my 1,000+ collection of books legally and removed the DRM instead of pirating.

4) It's great that you know what you need. Please keep in mind that you are not everyone, and other people have different needs.

[Rbneader]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

There is even a worse danger to storing, uploading and downloading formerly protected eBooks in the Cloud. Our NSA now tracks the entire cloud. They are trustworthy but a ROGUE employee of theirs could steal it all and then sell those identifiable files for money.

That is why I only PAY for my eBooks and store NOTHING in the Cloud of any sort.
...
Remember, when we buy an eBook, we only own the LICENSE to read that eBook; we do NOT own the file. If we purchased that file from Amazon and violate their customer service agreement in any way, they have the right to remove that file. If we backed it up and removed the DRM to defeat the agreement, it could be big trouble ahead.

Both of those first two paragraphs post cannot be true. Legally bought books are always stored in the cloud. Sometimes it's a download page to bookmark and sometimes they're saved to the purchasing account, but they are always stored in the cloud. The only way to not have ebooks stored in the cloud is to pirate.

If you want to not depend on cloud storage of your ebooks and the continued existence of the business selling you books, then buying DRM-free, removing DRM or pirating are the only options. If Amazon goes down, your Kindle won't be able to buy books from another service. Ditto for getting your account locked out.

[sirmaru]

Originally Posted by Mivo

Steam IS the DRM.

Unlock file? Steam uses online authorization, and the "offline mode" is rudimentary and usually doesn't work for more than two weeks, then you have to online-authorize your game(s) again. Most of the games do not work without the Steam software running, either. This is about as restrictive as it can be, and if this ever comes for books, I'll have bought the last book.

Furthermore, if you ever have any payment disputes with Valve/Steam, they lock you out from ALL of your purchases. In fact, Steam's ToS very clearly states that you are subscribing to the games, and that this subscription can be cancelled at any time. You're renting games at the full retail price.

When we "buy" an eBook, we are only receiving a LICENSE to read the eBook. We do NOT own that eBook file in the same way we own a print book on purchase.

Thus, the Steam model may work for eBooks in the same way as it works for games. So far as I know, neither Alf nor anyone else has been able to break the Steam protection model.

The Amazon practice of inserting 9 digit license numbers in the metadata of MP3 song files, may be the first step in a Steam like method of protection. It could well be applied to eBooks in the future.

Its obvious to me that the ease of getting rid of protection using the Alf plug-in for Calibre makes the present DRM technology totally obsolete.

The other solution is to get rid of all DRM protection entirely and TRUST all the eBook buyers never to share their files. I'm not sure authors, publishers and retailers are willing to do that.

[Rbneader]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

When we "buy" an eBook, we are only receiving a LICENSE to read the eBook. We do NOT own that eBook file in the same way we own a print book on purchase.

Thus, the Steam model may work for eBooks in the same way as it works for games. So far as I know, neither Alf nor anyone else has been able to break the Steam protection model.

The Amazon practice of inserting 9 digit license numbers in the metadata of MP3 song files, may be the first step in a Steam like method of protection. It could well be applied to eBooks in the future.

Its obvious to me that the ease of getting rid of protection using the Alf plug-in for Calibre makes the present DRM technology totally obsolete.

The other solution is to get rid of all DRM protection entirely and TRUST all the eBook buyers never to share their files. I'm not sure authors, publishers and retailers are willing to do that.

Steam protection is definitely cracked. All DRM that I'm aware of can be cracked.

Going DRM-free seems frightening, but at least 2 publishers that I know of have made it a policy and haven't seen an increase in piracy. Several games stores also are DRM-free. Companies that treat customers well will keep them, because it turns out most people are decent and will pay for things that can be gotten for free if they feel they are being treated fairly.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

When we "buy" an eBook, we are only receiving a LICENSE to read the eBook. We do NOT own that eBook file in the same way we own a print book on purchase.

That is exactly what publishers are trying to achieve. It is also exactly the main reason why the DRM is cracked: not only on e-books, but also on music, movies and games.

Most of the time, DRM is cracked so people can actually own what they buy (which means, that they can use it forever, should they want to, without anyone else telling them they can't, for whatever reason), not so they can distribute it for free to others.

[sirmaru]

Originally Posted by Rbneader

Steam protection is definitely cracked.

You are correct. I googled and found the link but will not post it here.

That is a tragedy and means the publishers of eBooks, music, games, movies and software may be doomed.

There definitely needs to be a new model of some sort to protect rights holders of those products. I really don't think customers world wide can be trusted for unprotected products like cited above including eBooks.

I posted a link early in this thread showing the widespread use of piracy with software products by nation. That software includes all the products cited above. It ranges from 20% in the USA to over 70% in Armenia.

[Rbneader]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Can you give me a link to that news? I thought it could not be cracked and never happened.

If it really has been cracked, then the publishers of eBooks, music, games, movies and software may be doomed.

Steam protection has been cracked for years. Sky hasn't fallen in yet. If you're that interested, google for cracked versions of Skyrim or what have you, you'll find them.

Also, most music sold online is DRM-free mp3s. iTunes and Amazon both sell those, they can be copied anywhere and played anywhere, and again, has been for years. The music industry is doing pretty well.

[sirmaru]

Originally Posted by Rbneader

Steam protection has been cracked for years. Sky hasn't fallen in yet. If you're that interested, google for cracked versions of Skyrim or what have you, you'll find them.

Also, most music sold online is DRM-free mp3s. iTunes and Amazon both sell those, they can be copied anywhere and played anywhere, and again, has been for years. The music industry is doing pretty well.

See this link for the effects of piracy on the music industry:

http://www.clickitticket.com/MoneyMusicandPiracy.asp

It shows that sales of music including digital media has declined from 14.6 billion dollars in 1999 to 8.5 billion in 2008.

I couldn't find any numbers after 2008.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

There definitely needs to be a new model of some sort to protect rights holders of those products. I really don't think customers world wide can be trusted for unprotected products like cited above including eBooks.

You're correct, and the new model is already here. GOG.com shows how it's to be done, as I've already said often. They seem to be doing very well, and they only sell old crap (= very old computer games, and some not so old games) for peanuts. How?

- Complete. Game, Expansion (if any), art, CD-quality soundtrack, manual.
- Ease of use. The games are patched up to the latest official patch level, and they are modified to run on newer computers (if necessary). Often, old games won't run on new computers, but GOG.com versions will. Install, DONE.
- Convenient. No DRM. Pay, Download, install. On as many computers as you want. After you download the game, you can use it forever, as long as you have a computer/OS to run it on, even if GOG.com ceases to exist.
- Good price. Many games cost between $5 and $10. They do release some new games too (also without DRM), for $15-$20. They often have 30-80% discounts on bundles.

Some time ago they ran a ticker on their website, and I've watched it for a minute or two. On average, they sold a game every few seconds; evidentely, they're making a ton of money, and they're making it by mostly selling 10-15+ year old stuff!

I posted a link early in this thread showing the widespread use of piracy with software products by nation. That software includes all the products cited above. It ranges from 20% in the USA to over 70% in Armenia.

Most people pirate if they don't have a lot of money, but have a lot of time. When I was in school, I copied and pirated games. I really did. Now that I have a job, I don't have the time to keep up with the latest cracks that work with the latest updates, I don't have the time to ferret out the retail versions of ebooks on Torrent sites (instead of getting crappy OCR versions or versions mangled by 25 calibre conversions).

It costs too much time compared to what I would pay to get a legal version directly, not to mention from a trusted source, a working one, and an unmangled one.

If I can get games and books for $3-10 (€2.20 - €7.35, prices I couldn't even DREAM about 10 years ago when buying boxed games and paper books), not taking into account any discounts, I don't even THINK about pirating stuff. It's just not worth the time and hassle compared to the price.

[sirmaru]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

If I can get games and books for $3-10 (€2.20 - €7.35, prices I couldn't even DREAM about 10 years ago when buying boxed games and paper books), not taking into account any discounts, I don't even THINK about pirating stuff. It's just not worth the time and hassle compared to the price.

That just may be THE solution. Keep prices low enough so no one will waste time even learning how to pirate anything. With Amazon selling MP3 songs totally unprotected for an average $ 1.00 price, its just not worth my time to find a pirated copy of it anywhere. I don't even have to back them up since Amazon keeps a copy for me to re-download as much as I want.

With eBooks at $ 10.00 per copy it doesn't pay for ME to look for pirate copies either. Maybe those eBook prices should drop to an average of about $ 4.00 and eliminate all DRM and those looking to accumulate pirate copies will dry up.

As the price drops and the features increase, the incentive to make extra copies or look for pirated versions tends to disappear.

So far it appears the publishers and Apple were trying to hold eBook prices up per the latest suit which was won against them for price fixing last year. Amazon was trying to crush the prices. Maybe the others should go along with Amazon, cut the prices, increase the features and end all DRM just like with the songs.

[John F]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

...

In my jurisdiction DRM stripping is ILLEGAL no matter what its purposes. In some jurisdictions DRM stripping is a CRIME. In others it is just a civil violation. In other jurisdictions there are no penalties. Here in the US we have FIFTY jurisdictions each with their own laws on the subject. The EU as well has many jurisdictions all with different laws on eBook DRM.

...

In the U.S., I thought that DRM stripping was covered under the DMCA, so there is really only one jurisdiction?

Also, aren't there exceptions (2010 exceptions being the most recent)?

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

That just may be THE solution. Keep prices low enough so no one will waste time even learning how to pirate anything. With Amazon selling MP3 songs totally unprotected for an average $ 1.00 price, its just not worth my time to find a pirated copy of it anywhere. I don't even have to back them up since Amazon keeps a copy for me to re-download as much as I want.

True, but a second-hand CD is still cheaper at around $5 for 10-15 songs. (Also, I would make backups... just in case.)

With eBooks at $ 10.00 per copy it doesn't pay for ME to look for pirate copies either. Maybe those eBook prices should drop to an average of about $ 4.00 and eliminate all DRM and those looking to accumulate pirate copies will dry up.

You keep stating that price of $10 per book. I never paid that amount. The highest is $7.99. (Granted, I bought that using a 50% coupon, and the print version is HUGE.)

Many members on MobileRead don't pay more than $3 to $4 on average already. I often buy books for less than $3, by shopping around and using discount coupons. OK, getting the book directly through the Kindle would be faster, but if I can save $3 to $7 per book, I'll spend a few minutes on it.

(Also, I often buy series. If a store is the cheapest with book 1, they are often also the cheapest with books 2 through X.)

So far it appears the publishers and Apple were trying to hold eBook prices up per the latest suit which was won against them for price fixing last year. Amazon was trying to crush the prices. Maybe the others should go along with Amazon, cut the prices, increase the features and end all DRM just like with the songs.

That is indeed the best way to go.

The books don't have to be sold for next to nothing. They need to be sold for a price people are willing to pay without thinking too much about it.

Thus:

Price = $4.99 maximum, for a mainstream book, maybe $7.99 for a just released book from a high-profile author.

Now, make sure that the books are of good quality, which means:

- Nice cover
- Complete TOC
- Correctly indented and justified text
- Nice chapter headings
- (on and on: basically make the book as good as a print version would be)

And last: throw in some discounts now and again:

"If you buy all books in these series at once, you'll get 20% off."

So, you'll pay $4.99 for Book 1, $9.99 for Book 1+2, BUT, you'll pay $11.98, for Book 1+2+3, which instantly drops the price per book from $4.99 to $3.99.

I can almost GUARANTEE that a lot of people who intended to buy only Book 1 will end up buying all three, just to have the last book for $2, effectively. (Or, save $1 per book, which is the same, of course.)

Obviously there should be no DRM.

Uh....Wait.... I just remembered something...

This is exactly what GOG.com already does!

GOG.com has a lot of hard-core fans because it operates like this. I know. I'm on their boards. If a new game is coming up, many of them actually go over to the boards of the developers/publishers and bluntly state: "If you don't release the game on GOG.com, I won't buy it."

I'm one of them, actually. BeamDog missed out on $40, because they refused to release their Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 remakes on GOG.com, and insist on having on-install activation DRM in them. Instant no-buy for me, even though I really want them. As soon as they release these games on GOG.com, they'll be on my hard drive before the day is out.

I am quite sure that this same business model of completeness, good prices and convenience will drive e-book piracy into the ground. Yes, I've seen some GOG.com games pirated, but if you're going to pirate stuff that costs $5 for 50 hours of playing time, then you'll likely never pay for anything. I think that sort of people will actually steal from stores if they can get away with it.

[meeera]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

It shows that sales of music including digital media has declined from 14.6 billion dollars in 1999 to 8.5 billion in 2008.

I couldn't find any numbers after 2008.

I suggest to you that any drop in music sales in the last couple of decades is the effect of the internet and videogames on music sales.

As teenagers, we used to spend most of our disposable income on music, share music (yes, there was plenty of pirating), spend hours trying to catch that radio song on tape, spend much of our free time listening to music and talking about music and bands.

Most preteens and teenagers now don't do that. It's all videogames, all the time. Popular music is a side interest at best.

[Mivo]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

When we "buy" an eBook, we are only receiving a LICENSE to read the eBook. We do NOT own that eBook file in the same way we own a print book on purchase.

That is of little practical relevance with books. With Steam, however, it is, because they can and will lock you out your purchases. You see, if I ever have a payment dispute with Kobo, the worst they can do is prevent me from buying new books. They can't stop me from reading the books I already paid for. If you charge back a payment made to Steam, you will not be playing any of your games, including the ones you paid for. You are, in essence, a hostage of their DRM scheme.

Now, a lot of people think that this is just a theoretical concern, as did I at once point, just don't do anything wrong and you'll never have problems. So here's a story: A while back, Steam offered a game for pre-order. The only bonus was a 10% discount, and I pre-ordered and paid in advance for it. On the exact day of the release, the game was discounted by 33%. I had no way of cancelling my order in a supported fashion, so I emailed Steam about it. They said that the 33% discount was a mistake (but didn't pull it), and that they were very sorry. However, they were neither willing to return the payment in full, nor give a cash refund, and they also refused to give me store credit.

Under normal conditions, I would have charged back my payment, but with Steam I had no such option, unless I was willing to either take legal steps (over what, ten dollars?) or accept that they ban my account and thus access to games that I spent thousands on over the years. Of course, they have gotten no money from me since, but it illustrates how DRM that can't be removed or bypassed essentially imprisons you and what you paid for -- even if you are a "good customer".

Thus, the Steam model may work for eBooks in the same way as it works for games. So far as I know, neither Alf nor anyone else has been able to break the Steam protection model.

You should visit some torrent sites, then. Plenty of Steamworks games on there, and they presumably work. I have no first hand experience with this, because I won't risk running executables from shadowy places outside of a sandbox, but it doesn't actually matter, because what matters is that my money now goes elsewhere, such as GoG.com, Desura, etc., none of which use DRM.

Its obvious to me that the ease of getting rid of protection using the Alf plug-in for Calibre makes the present DRM technology totally obsolete.

If I could not remove the DRM from books that I have purchased, I would not have purchased them.

That is what you and the publishers are not giving importance to: I am a customer, not a baby with criminal tendencies who needs artificial force to do "the right thing". DRM doesn't prevent piracy, it fosters and encourages it. The music industry has shown that removing DRM globally won't kill the market (the removal came after 2008). It's not just evidence, it's hard proof, and yet publishers of books and games largely ignore it.

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

I am quite sure that this same business model of completeness, good prices and convenience will drive e-book piracy into the ground.

Exactly, especially once you add one more vital requirement - availability. For a lot of those high-piracy countries, for a lot of the things pirated (films, TV shows, ebooks), lack of availability is as important a factor as the too-high (Western) prices.

You can't be an honest customer and buy things when no one is selling you those things.

Yeah, you can say (and Americans and Brits, in particular, are usually the first to say that - it's nice to sit on a high horse when you have far more choices actually available to you!) that people in all those other countries aren't entitled to those books and films and TV shows that no one is selling them - they can just go without, it's a luxury they're not entitled to.

Yeah. But it's a global world now and people don't like to feel left out. People want to participate, people in those non-important countries want to experience the same things their friends elsewhere do, people want to discuss things, people want to feel equal. So when there's no other option - well, then.

Is it right? No, I suppose not. But it is the reality and it is human. And making things legally available would be one major step towards at least reducing piracy - because it is far more convenient to buy legally than to pirate, at least once you've crossed the barrier from "can't afford" to "can afford".