"Most e-books in The Netherlands are not paid for."

[sirmaru]

Originally Posted by Yapyap

Of course they could. It's true that stripping DRM off a legally bought ebook gives pirates an easy way to upload and share books, but there are many, many pirated books around that don't even exist as official ebooks and never have.

The Harry Potter books were around as very good "unofficial" e-copies (PDF and other formats) years before official ebooks were made. Same goes for many other books.

If a book exists and can be viewed/read, it can also be pirated, as long as someone wants to do it and has a scanner or a camera. DRM is not an obstacle to pirates or pirate sites; DRM is only something that inconveniences people who buy their books honestly and want to keep personal backups, transfer their legally bought book to a different brand of reader and maybe - maybe - share a copy with a good friend or sibling, much like they did in the days of paper books, not upload and "share" with the entire world.

How would you protect the rights of authors and publishers to collect revenue for the use of their products?

Should authors work for nothing? Should publishers simply go out of business?

The answers affect eBooks, songs, movies and games.

Steam has solved the problem for games. There is NO DRM on their games. You can backup your game but it cannot run unless you receive an unlock file linked to your PC from Steam.

If you upload that game file to a "sharing site," no downloader can use it. So far as I know no one has been able to defeat the Steam method for games.

Maybe Amazon should adopt the Steam practices for their eBooks. Maybe those 9 digit license numbers now being planted by Amazon in the metadata of their song files is the first step to an alternative to conventional DRM. Maybe Amazon will come up with an unlock file analogous to the Steam unlock files which will be linked to those 9 digit license numbers.

No matter what happens authors DESERVE their fees and so do the publishers who represent them. Remember, the buyer only receives a LICENSE to read the eBook file. He has NOT purchased OWNERSHIP rights to the software or the data file. That differs from the rights of purchasers of print books where they OWN the physical book after they pay for it. However, even in those cases, the purchaser does NOT own the rights to copy that book or re-publish it in his own name.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

As we have seen in this thread the Netherlands has passed their own laws exempting all eBook file downloaders from any restrictions whether those files are DRM protected or DRM stripped or being given away free with author / publisher permission or being given away without that permission.

Uh. That's a bit wrong I'm afraid. Ebooks are not treated differently compared to other files.

In the Netherlands, downloading any files using any service is legal. The reason for this is that the Dutch government is of the opinion (at this point in time) that it is unreasonable to expect someone to go try and find out if a particular file is illegal or not, before downloading.

For example: You visit Usenet, and there is a file there:
"A Christmas Carol - Charles Dickens"

What version? A legal one, containing only the text in a TXT-file? An illegal one in EPUB form, that was created and professionally laid out by a company that normally sells on Amazon.com? (A public domain text is NOT always free: there can be copyright on the particular ebook itself.)

And a fictional file, found through Google:
"The great dragons of Andramoon - Sir Gawain Hugesword"

Maybe that's a freebee. Maybe it's not. Hey, some sites offer it for free as the first in a series, other sites want $2 for it. Who's right? Is that version which Google found a legal one or not?

It's confusing, maybe even impossible to determine if a file is legal or not. This is the main reason that the Dutch law basically says: "If it's on the internet in whatever form, you're allowed to download it."

It is also legal to crack and remove any copy protection on any media, for personal use and backup purposes.

However, uploading, distributing, sharing, and giving away of content which you don't have the rights to distribute is illegal. If you upload books or movies or music to Usenet or Torrent sites and someone files a complaint, you could be busted. If you give a copy of a CD to colleague A and Colleague B who hates you tells the authorities and they decide to investigate, you could be in trouble.

You'll not face charges like the ones in Amerika ("Hey, you shared 9 songs. You must pay us 50 million and then go to jail for 285 years"), but I imagine it still can't be fun to be taken to court.

There are some talks about looking into making some downloading illegal. This would be material "that is clearly illegally provided and coming from an evidently illegal source". Think about downloading high-profile media, of which the status can be readily determined.

Everybody, and I mean *EVERYBODY* can determine and understand that a movie released in theatres in 2013 just CAN'T be a legal download from Usenet or Torrent in 2014, a week after the DVD/Blu-Ray was released. Everybody knows that a Torrent containing 40.000 Fantasy and Sci-Fi books MUST have a lot of illegally distributed stuff in there.

I know, it's not completely honest, because it only encompasses high-profile and/or well known material. A lot of material (such as a non-free version of a PD book) will probably still go unpunished.

===

(For some reason, computer programs and games are an exception: it's not legal to download them, except if it is specifically stated that they are free, or you can provide proof that you have the right to download them. For example, logging in to a known legal service such as GOG.com, or Steam.)

[sirmaru]

Thanks for that clarification on the Netherlands law. By the way, have you read anything in the Netherlands newspapers about any disposition of the eBook question to the European Court of Justice?

Here is an email I received from Sony today:

"Although we're sorry to say goodbye to the Reader Store, we're also glad to share with you the new, exciting future for our readers: Reader Store will transfer customers to Toronto-based eReading company, Kobo—an admired eBook seller with a passionate reading community. We strongly believe that this transition will allow you to enjoy a continued high-quality e-reading experience. As a result of this change, we will close Reader Store in the U.S. and Canada on March 20, 2014 at 6 p.m. (EST). "

I am sure losses on free sharing of copy protected eBooks had some share of the blame for this outcome.

Another thread active now on this Forum has more information on the Sony situation.

I am also sure this is just the first casualty. There will be more to follow. Depriving retailers, publishers and authors of their rightful fees does have an effect on the industry.

I had done a poll on this site some time ago with 173 respondents showing overwhelming use of Alf to strip DRM. That does reflect this forum and it may reflect the tendency of eBook users who are active in the hobby.

Finally, many of those "file sharing" sites REQUIRE uploading of files to be shared in order to qualify for downloading other free files. Thus, the "collectors" of those thousands of files may be on both ends of the sharing: uploading AND downloading.

For me I don't mind PAYING a fair fee for an eBook. The standard Amazon price of $ 10.00 per eBook is still a lot less than the old prices of $ 40.00 for a print book 30 years ago. I also do NOT need backups of any eBooks I buy. I buy them to READ ONCE and then discard them as I did with print books years ago from the Book of the Month Club. I only need Amazon to keep getting new eBooks for me to keep reading.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Thanks for that clarification on the Netherlands law. By the way, have you read anything in the Netherlands newspapers about any disposition of the eBook question to the European Court of Justice?

No, not yet.

The only thing I know of that the government is looking to make "clearly illegal downloads" illegal. (As mentioned, a clearly illegal download is getting a high-profile 2013 movie on Usenet in 2014.)

How they are going to check it? I don't know. It's impossible to check each and every download. It's even impossible for Usenetproviders to try and keep Usenet clean from illegal uploads. I suspect it will be just be a "paper rule": not enforced, except in special circumstances. In other words, if you don't arouse suspicion by downloading huge amounts of data, you'll be left alone.

Me: Download 20GB a month. Care. There may be a book in there, or 1 or 2 DVD movies. So what? Way too expensive to check out if that is so.
Neighbor: Download 2 TeraByte a month. All alarm bells at the provider side will go off, and that guy will be checked out. Nobody downloads 2 TeraByte of "Linux distributions" a month.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

I am sure losses on free sharing of copy protected eBooks had some share of the blame for this outcome.

Another thread active now on this Forum has more information on the Sony situation.

I am also sure this is just the first casualty. There will be more to follow. Depriving retailers, publishers and authors of their rightful fees does have an effect on the industry.

I don't agree that this is mostly due to piracy. The weird stuff: You can (could) buy Sony e-readers in The Netherlands, but AFAIK, you CAN'T shop in the Sony store. That ridiculous.

Originally Posted by sirmaru

I had done a poll on this site some time ago with 173 respondents showing overwhelming use of Alf to strip DRM. That does reflect this forum and it may reflect the tendency of eBook users who are active in the hobby.

I strip DRM. I wouldn't even BUY books that have DRM that can't be stripped.

There are three reasons for me to strip DRM:

1 - I want te ability to convert books from EPUB to AZW3 or the other way around, depending on the reader I choose at any point.
2 - There are quite some books that Amazon.com (where I have to shop, if I buy from them) does NOT want to sell to me, while other stores such as Kobo, Feedbooks, Ebooks.com, Diesel, and previously, Books On Board WOULD sell. Sometimes, but not often, it's the other way around. Also, for me, Amazon is often more expensive than other stores.
3 - I wish to manage all my books in Calibre, tags and all. Having my books spread out over 10 stores is not convenient, and shopping at Amazon only is not an option.

If I didn't strip DRM, I would need to have two readers: one for Amazon books, and one for EPUBs.

Actually, in The Netherlands, many retailers are ditching Adobe DRM for invisible watermarks. I'm fine with this, as I don't share my ebooks. The only real danger is in putting 500 (legal!) books on your reader, losing the device or having it stolen, after which someone else uploads the books onto the internet. Then you will be in big trouble.

Maybe you could avoid it by reporting your reader stolen ASAP or something.

[meeera]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Actually, in The Netherlands, many retailers are ditching Adobe DRM for invisible watermarks. I'm fine with this, as I don't share my ebooks. The only real danger is in putting 500 (legal!) books on your reader, losing the device or having it stolen, after which someone else uploads the books onto the internet. Then you will be in big trouble.

Maybe you could avoid it by reporting your reader stolen ASAP or something.

That's not the only risk - people hacking into your cloud backup (or, perhaps less likely, your computer itself) is another.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by meeera

That's not the only risk - people hacking into your cloud backup (or, perhaps less likely, your computer itself) is another.

Indeed. The latter is not that likely, but the former could actually happen, even if one has different usernames and passwords for all sites. A flaw in the webserver, database, or simply the site itself can be enough.

[sirmaru]

There is even a worse danger to storing, uploading and downloading formerly protected eBooks in the Cloud. Our NSA now tracks the entire cloud. They are trustworthy but a ROGUE employee of theirs could steal it all and then sell those identifiable files for money.

Recently our NSA did have a rogue employee take off to Russia. He may have all the data which could expose the entire universe of those files including Usenet and Bit Torrent sites.

That is why I only PAY for my eBooks and store NOTHING in the Cloud of any sort.

Of course NSA records all our Amazon activity and our posts here as well.

When the "free" music scandal broke in 2002, thousands of subpoenas went out to folks who never believed it possible that cracking the DRM on a few songs would land them in that kind of trouble. Plus, no one believed that cracking the DRM on a single song would bring in a subpoena from supposedly anonymous sites. Its just too dangerous to crack DRM even though it appears harmless.

Remember, when we buy an eBook, we only own the LICENSE to read that eBook; we do NOT own the file. If we purchased that file from Amazon and violate their customer service agreement in any way, they have the right to remove that file. If we backed it up and removed the DRM to defeat the agreement, it could be big trouble ahead.

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

How would you protect the rights of authors and publishers to collect revenue for the use of their products?

Should authors work for nothing? Should publishers simply go out of business?

The answers affect eBooks, songs, movies and games.

Steam has solved the problem for games. There is NO DRM on their games. You can backup your game but it cannot run unless you receive an unlock file linked to your PC from Steam.

If you upload that game file to a "sharing site," no downloader can use it. So far as I know no one has been able to defeat the Steam method for games.

Maybe Amazon should adopt the Steam practices for their eBooks. Maybe those 9 digit license numbers now being planted by Amazon in the metadata of their song files is the first step to an alternative to conventional DRM. Maybe Amazon will come up with an unlock file analogous to the Steam unlock files which will be linked to those 9 digit license numbers.

No matter what happens authors DESERVE their fees and so do the publishers who represent them. Remember, the buyer only receives a LICENSE to read the eBook file. He has NOT purchased OWNERSHIP rights to the software or the data file. That differs from the rights of purchasers of print books where they OWN the physical book after they pay for it. However, even in those cases, the purchaser does NOT own the rights to copy that book or re-publish it in his own name.

I haven't said anything about authors or publishers not deserving their fees. Of course they do. Of course they should be paid for their work.

All I was saying that DRM removal does not equal piracy and piracy does not equal DRM removal. You can be a pirate without removing DRM (or without even having an ebook to start with) and you can remove DRM without that making you a pirate.

DRM removal may be illegal in a given jurisdiction, but that does not make someone removing DRM a pirate any more than crossing the street at a red light makes you a pirate or killing someone makes you a pirate (even though you may be a pirate who habitually crosses the road when the red is light or a pirate who also goes around killing people).

There are lots of things that are illegal. They don't all mean the same thing, though.

How does me removing DRM from a book I personally bought from a shop for me to read (and then keeping the file to myself) make me a pirate or take money away from authors and publishers?

Unless you mean you think that authors & publishers deserve to get paid again every time someone's ereader dies, in which case you should probably expect people to buy new copies of paper books also when their bookshelf collapses, because clearly you shouldn't be allowed to just buy a new shelf and place your already-bought books on that new shelf (at least if your old shelf was a different brand from the new shelf).

And if you wish to blame pirates for Sony pulling out of e-book business, well, yeah, according to your former data, Americans pirate the least, and since Sony only sold books to about three countries (the US being the main one) and no one else, the people in all those pirating-happy places (where they could not, ever, buy books from Sony because Sony did not sell them books, although Sony did sell them ereaders) could not really have caused the downfall of Sony's ebook business, even if they committed the heinous crime of buying a book from Amazon, removing DRM and putting the book on their Sony ereader.

[svda]

Originally Posted by Terisa de morgan

Change The Netherland by Spain and Dutch by Spanish you have the same articles and situations (although not the same English level)

The english level mentioned by Katsunamy is utter BS. Most of my books are dutch and I can and do read english. So can most of the readers of Ezzulia (forum). Why would reading behaviour differ just because it's electronic. If we buy dutch books (hardcopy), then we buy and read dutch ebooks. I must say that choice is very good in the Netherlands and I buy mine with "watermerk", never with adobe DRM. I also read english and german ebooks, but not the majority.

Also, the article by Katsunami makes me wonder how many people were asked to participate ? Sometimes articles like that are no less than just paid for "public message" sponsored by ... again utter BS since downloading files generally is LEGAL for personal use in the Netherlands, whereas uploading is ILLEGAL.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by svda

The english level mentioned by Katsunamy is utter BS. Most of my books are dutch and I can and do read english. So can most of the readers of Ezzulia (forum). Why would reading behaviour differ just because it's electronic. If we buy dutch books (hardcopy), then we buy and read dutch ebooks. I must say that choice is very good in the Netherlands and I buy mine with "watermerk", never with adobe DRM. I also read english and german ebooks, but not the majority.

Originally Posted by Katsunami

NOBODY... NO - FRACKING - BODY is buying or even reading Dutch e-books compared to English ones, at least not among the people I know, except for one person because she can't read English. All others read in English and acquire their books outside of the Netherlands because of price, choice, and (in case of classics) the possibility to get them for free.

It sounds reasonable to claim that ebooks and pbooks are very different when it comes to pricing/availability in Dutch vs. English. I expect a better disproof to Katsunami's claims than "Why would reading behaviour differ just because it's electronic".

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by svda

The english level mentioned by Katsunamy is utter BS.

Not where I am. I work in IT, which means tech stuff. Everybody I know who is a reader, uses an e-reader, and reads in English, except if the original book is Dutch. But... nobody I know reads any original Dutch books.

And, as I said, English is a core subject in Dutch schools. It is taught as much, and at the same level as Dutch, starting in high school. There is even some discussion now if it wouldn't be better to start at prep school. ("Basisschool", for children between 6 and 12.)

At the age of 16-17, you are expected to speak, understand, read and write English at the same level as Dutch, and indeed, many people do so, or almost. The problem is that for some of them the use of English starts to decline after high school (especially when doing a study that does not require English), and at the age of 30, their English is only just passable.

However, the people who keep using English (as I do, it's basically required in IT), come to see it as their primary language.

Also, the article by Katsunami makes me wonder how many people were asked to participate ? Sometimes articles like that are no less than just paid for "public message" sponsored by ... again utter BS since downloading files generally is LEGAL for personal use in the Netherlands, whereas uploading is ILLEGAL.

I don't know. The number of participants isn't stated.

And, you're right, telling people that downloading stuff is illegal is bullshit. Even DVD's have intro's stating that downloading movies is illegal and stealing, and it's printed on the back of CD boxes and such, while the law says otherwise. Therefore, the intro's and warnings are actually lying.

Until the law changes, nobody is doing anything wrong in the Netherlands when downloading. (I don't say it's a good thing to do so, I'm only saying it's still allowed.)

Originally Posted by eschwartz

It sounds reasonable to claim that ebooks and pbooks are very different when it comes to pricing/availability in Dutch vs. English. I expect a better disproof to Katsunami's claims than "Why would reading behaviour differ just because it's electronic".

Reading behaviour differs BECAUSE reading is now electronic.

Now, when reading in English, people can shop around the world, instead of only shopping in Dutch stores. It greatly lowers the price of reading.

With regard to paper, most Dutch stores only stock Dutch translations of books; if it's not translated, the book is not available, and needs to be ordered, making the price of the English book even higher than the Dutch translation. The waiting time can be two weeks.

Online stores mostly have the English versions for about the same price as the Dutch ones (or a bit cheaper), but more often than not, the delivery time is 5-7 working days.

The delivery time of an ebook is not 5-7 working days: it's 5-7 seconds.

If you use an e-reader, you're basically committing literary suicide if you only read Dutch books. Not enough choice, not enough places to shop, too expensive.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Reading behaviour differs BECAUSE reading is now electronic.

Now, when reading in English, people can shop around the world, instead of only shopping in Dutch stores. It greatly lowers the price of reading.

With regard to paper, most Dutch stores only stock Dutch translations of books; if it's not translated, the book is not available, and needs to be ordered, making the price of the English book even higher than the Dutch translation. The waiting time can be two weeks.

Online stores mostly have the English versions for about the same price as the Dutch ones (or a bit cheaper), but more often than not, the delivery time is 5-7 working days.

The delivery time of an ebook is not 5-7 working days: it's 5-7 seconds.

If you use an e-reader, you're basically committing literary suicide if you only read Dutch books. Not enough choice, not enough places to shop, too expensive.

+1

I was going to hypothesize exactly this (or near enough) but I got lazy...

[Rbneader]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Steam has solved the problem for games. There is NO DRM on their games. You can backup your game but it cannot run unless you receive an unlock file linked to your PC from Steam.

If you upload that game file to a "sharing site," no downloader can use it. So far as I know no one has been able to defeat the Steam method for games.

You keep using that word, but I do not think you know what it means.

Not being able to run the game without connecting to use Steam's decryption is DRM. Other forms of DRM include CD disc checks or installing malware that attempts to limit how you can use your computer like Sony's rootkits or StarForce. Steam can enforce always-online DRM, or it can only require check-ins every so often, and games on Steam often come with other forms of DRM as well.

There are DRM-free games on Steam, because developers and publishers can choose whether to apply Steam's DRM or not, but Steam is typically used as a form of DRM, and what you are describing is a form of DRM.

DRM-free is not the same thing as pirated. GOG.com, Baen Ebooks, Smashwords, many of the various bundle sites like Indie Royale and other indie game sites all sell titles DRM-free. These are current businesses making money for themselves and for rightsholders by selling games or books DRM-free.

[Mivo]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Steam has solved the problem for games. There is NO DRM on their games. You can backup your game but it cannot run unless you receive an unlock file linked to your PC from Steam.

Steam IS the DRM.

Unlock file? Steam uses online authorization, and the "offline mode" is rudimentary and usually doesn't work for more than two weeks, then you have to online-authorize your game(s) again. Most of the games do not work without the Steam software running, either. This is about as restrictive as it can be, and if this ever comes for books, I'll have bought the last book.

Furthermore, if you ever have any payment disputes with Valve/Steam, they lock you out from ALL of your purchases. In fact, Steam's ToS very clearly states that you are subscribing to the games, and that this subscription can be cancelled at any time. You're renting games at the full retail price.