Amazon's own ebook format

[jgsmith]

Originally Posted by barryem

Yes it is illegal to protect yourself from this but there's virtually no chance of getting caught. There's no harm done to Amazon or to the publisher or author of the books.



Whether this is illegal or immoral are two entirely distinct issues.



It is illegal, according to the DMCA, to defeat encryption. It's a felony, in fact, with pretty severe penalties. But that means nothing if there's no possibility of enforcement.



Barry

Well said! I would add that not only is there virtually no chance of getting caught, but there's even less chance of this holing up in court. If you are stripping DRM from a book you purchased legally, and you are not sharing the book, you have met the intent if not the word of the law IMO.

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Remember, once DRM is stripped, the next act without any real consequences would be sharing with friends and family.

Speak for yourself, my friends and family don't read in English... and my books are mine

[sirmaru]

Originally Posted by Terisa de morgan

Speak for yourself, my friends and family don't read in English... and my books are mine

There are now many internet translation sites where entire books can be copied to and from any language.

However, the song problem has been solved by Amazon. All songs are now issued in a standard MP3 format by Amazon and no DRM has been added other than a license number in the metadata. One can play them on any device or computer since they are now a standard. One can make as many backup copies as one wishes.

All the new devices can play the new MP3 standard. There used to be many forms of songs but now all have faded out even if they had better quality. The serial number precludes file sharing sites from distributing that music now. Music without the license number could easily be detected as illegal.

Maybe eBooks need the same solution. Amazon and Apple should come up with an international standard and insert a license number. Then any eReader could display the eBooks and all this DRM removal problem would be solved. All eReaders would have to be able to read the same files.

If I buy a song now, I can play it on an iPad, PC, Kindle Fire or any other device. They all play the MP3 standard. iTunes used to be heavily protected and even that product now matches the MP3 standard.

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

So far I am choosing not to do this but others must make their own choice. If stripping of DRM led to sharing of those eBooks, then the economic model for writing and publishing books would collapse. Remember, once DRM is stripped, the next act without any real consequences would be sharing with friends and family.

Stripping DRM. The road to hell and damnation....

I do appreciate it that you're looking out for everyone's welfare. But, you know, most of us are grown adults who understand the consequences of our actions.

You just need to stop worrying about what other people do. If you feel you have no need to use calibre and/or alf, more power to you. I sure as heck won't beat up up for your decisions. Just stop lecturing. Nobody cares.

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

There are now many internet translation sites where entire books can be copied to and from any language.

With great quality, I imagine. Pfffft, lo que hay que leer.

[pidgeon92]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

If stripping of DRM led to sharing of those eBooks, then the economic model for writing and publishing books would collapse. Remember, once DRM is stripped, the next act without any real consequences would be sharing with friends and family.

There is no doubt in my mind that people strip DRM and share their ebooks regularly. There are plenty of pirate sites out there will all of the popular titles. I suspect neither has a great impact on the publishing industry.

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by pidgeon92

There is no doubt in my mind that people strip DRM and share their ebooks regularly. There are plenty of pirate sites out there will all of the popular titles. I suspect neither has a great impact on the publishing industry.

And what about all those publishers that don't use DRM. Baen, Tor, Angry Robot. My god.... How do they stay in business with everybody sharing ebooks.

[sirmaru]

Originally Posted by pidgeon92

There is no doubt in my mind that people strip DRM and share their ebooks regularly. There are plenty of pirate sites out there will all of the popular titles. I suspect neither has a great impact on the publishing industry.

Many publishers are now in bad shape and some smaller ones will have to close. I read that even Barnes & Noble is closing many book stores. The independent books stores have been shattered.

Another trend is for many authors to skip publishers altogether and have Amazon publish their books. Amazon can even issue print copes as required without having huge printing runs as publishers used to do in the past. That trend is more of a threat to publishers than DRM stripping.

Amazon even notes on their eBook pages which prices are dictated by publishers. Naturally, those dictated prices are higher than the eBook pages where Amazon decides the price.

The music industry was in the same decline a few years ago but now with standards imposed are growing once more. Many song artists even give away some songs now as downloads from their own sites as loss leaders to promote sales and tours.

[pidgeon92]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Many publishers are now in bad shape and some smaller ones will have to close. I read that even Barnes & Noble is closing many book stores. The independent books stores have been shattered.

My understanding is that independent bookstores, at least in the US, are increasing in number.

As for the rest, I would like to see proof that they are failing due to DRM stripping/ebook sharing.

Another trend is for many authors to skip publishers altogether and have Amazon publish their books. Amazon can even issue print copes as required without having huge printing runs as publishers used to do in the past.

Not sure how this is killing the publishing industry, as Amazon is a publisher. If they are doing it better than other publishers, that is the fault of the latter. Perhaps this will spur them to improve.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

It should be noted that Calibre, itself, has decided NOT to produce their own DRM removal tools but will accept the Alf plugin. Why did they make that choice?

As far as I know, purely for legal reasons, not for moral reasons.

[barryem]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

If stripping of DRM led to sharing of those eBooks, then the economic model for writing and publishing books would collapse. Remember, once DRM is stripped, the next act without any real consequences would be sharing with friends and family.

There are a lot of parallels to that argument. It's like saying if you own a gun the next step is to murder someone. If you own a car you'll soon be a getaway man for bank robbers. Arguments like this aren't usually taken very seriously. Certainly not by me.

However, our culture has always encouraged sharing books with family and friends. Someone who wouldn't do that would be considered at least a little bit selfish. I have an extra Kindle I use for that. I see no moral difficulty here. If I did it by stripping the DRM I'd see no problem with that either.

Posting a book on the internet to share it with everyone is a different matter. That does hurt the book industry. I can understand why people do that but I wouldn't do it.

Barry

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by barryem

However, our culture has always encouraged sharing books with family and friends. Someone who wouldn't do that would be considered at least a little bit selfish. I have an extra Kindle I use for that. I see no moral difficulty here. If I did it by stripping the DRM I'd see no problem with that either.

The issue arises when "sharing" actually means "creating an extra copy". It's a totally different matter to lend a paper book to a friend, compared to making a photocopy of the book and giving the photocopy to your friend. That latter action is the exact equivalent of "sharing" an ebook with your friend. It's copyright infringement, plain and simple.

[barryem]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The issue arises when "sharing" actually means "creating an extra copy". It's a totally different matter to lend a paper book to a friend, compared to making a photocopy of the book and giving the photocopy to your friend. That latter action is the exact equivalent of "sharing" an ebook with your friend. It's copyright infringement, plain and simple.

You're correct. As I said, in our culture, sharing a book with a friend or family is a good thing. A very good thing. It's one of the bonds that holds people together. That's a lot more important than whether we've technically broken a law. No harm has been done and some good has been done.

While I'm in preaching mode I'd like to suggest we be a little nicer in discussions like this to Sirmaru. Like a lot of people in here I disagree with much of what he says. But he expresses himself well and with courtesy and I think he deserves the same in return. And this isn't directed at Harry T. I just used this reply to mention this.

This is an interesting topic with a lot of important issues for our society today and I think it's worth serious discussion.

Okay. Preaching mode off! That sure felt good.

Barry

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by barryem

You're correct. As I said, in our culture, sharing a book with a friend or family is a good thing. A very good thing. It's one of the bonds that holds people together. That's a lot more important than whether we've technically broken a law. No harm has been done and some good has been done.

I must, with the greatest possible respect, beg to differ. If the person you "share" it with would otherwise have bought the book themselves, the author has lost a sale.

[sirmaru]

I just heard an extensive 30 minute report this morning on the BBC about the effects of "sharing" songs on the music industry. It appears songs are still being distributed by pirate sites worldwide. However, new models of distributing songs are being developed by Spotify where no files are sold but instead they stream all songs with advertising without an annual fee and no advertising with an annual fee.

These days I listen to streaming music from Pandora and they record in my profile screen at their web site the songs I issued a "Thumbs Up." They have a link there to both Amazon and Apple where one can then buy those specific songs with a single click. All the purchased songs come without DRM these days and only have a license number inserted in the metadata.

The streaming music industry actually knows exactly the amount of songs being downloaded from pirate sites geographically and to whom they went and then gear their own advertising to those geographic areas and people. Thus, they don't fight pirating anymore; they use it to increase their own sales. They say they pay over 2 billion dollars per year to copyright holders.

Netflix, as well, has preempted the pirate video sites with their monthly rentals of disks and streaming videos.

Those examples could be copied by Amazon which could now start an eBook rental service where one could pay a monthly or annual fee and then rent all their eBooks for reading at one or two per month. The rented files could have expiration dates for self destruction, thus, eliminating all chances of being pirated.

Right NOW Amazon allows Prime customers to get one free eBook per month and can keep it as long as they want. However, ordering the next free eBook DESTROYS the file of the old eBook. However, those rental eBooks are limited to only a few thousand. A full rental plan would include their entire eBook inventory. They already know how to do this.

I have a strong hunch that pirate eBook sites are the sources for many who collect thousands of eBooks without reading most of them. Then Calibre would be necessary to insert the missing metadata.

Back in 1930 I used to collect music on wire recorders. From 1960 onwards I collected them on tape. When I converted them to MP3 format about 10 years ago Media Monkey was a necessity since none of them had any metadata. However, MP3 songs purchased from Amazon today are filled with the proper metadata and Media Monkey is no longer necessary.

Thus, today with millions of eBooks being downloaded from pirate sites REQUIRES Calibre to insert metadata and Apprentice Alf to strip DRM in the same way that Media Monkey was once required for music. Today those downloading music from pirate sites still need Media Monkey since they may be missing most of the metadata.

These days I buy all my songs and eBooks from Amazon and all are fully loaded with the proper metadata. Thus, I don't have the same needs as others who get their songs and eBooks without any metadata and with possible DRM still loaded.

By the way, no one should get angry about all these issues. They are theoretical discussions and no individuals are being accused of any wrongdoing. However, they do affect the business model of the book industry and could affect how we acquire and receive our eBooks in the future.

Finally, with all the improvements in the music industry distribution plans the music pirate sites still exist and millions still get their music there. In the same way, no matter what Amazon does the pirate sites for eBooks will still exist and millions will still be getting their eBooks there.