Beware of Greeks Bearing Gifts: Let's talk about The Iliad

[BenG]

One thing that strikes me about The Iliad is that even though it's a Greek epic, the Trojans seem much more likeable than the Greeks.

[issybird]

Originally Posted by BenG

One thing that strikes me about The Iliad is that even though it's a Greek epic, the Trojans seem much more likeable than the Greeks.

I agree. In trying to account for this, could it be because the Greeks are in full warrior mode, but the Trojans are living within their society, with all the familial social relationships that entails? Giving a fuller, softened view of them as persons?

[issybird]

Question for those following this thread:

How do we feel about six books a week? Is it about right? Should we cut back a bit while people catch up? Comments, please, and then we'll figure out the goal for next week.

I am very excited by what a great read this has become. I'll post some talking points later but I hardly feel they're necessary, given the comments so far.

Originally Posted by issybird

Question for those following this thread:

How do we feel about six books a week? Is it about right? Should we cut back a bit while people catch up? Comments, please, and then we'll figure out the goal for next week.

I am very excited by what a great read this has become. I'll post some talking points later but I hardly feel they're necessary, given the comments so far.

Damn woman can't you just make up your mind about anything and stick to it? You are so fickle. To be serious I found the six books a week pace excellent and easy to do while still fitting in other reading.

I agree about the discussion so far. I really appreciate the contributions of resident MR Greek classics scholar HarryT. Please keep it up.


I have a couple of observations to make, but need time to go back and find some illustrating passages.

[Latinandgreek]

Originally Posted by BenG

One thing that strikes me about The Iliad is that even though it's a Greek epic, the Trojans seem much more likeable than the Greeks.

I agree. Hektor is still one of my favourite literary characters.

[Latinandgreek]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Achilles isn't a god - his father was king Pelius, and his mother was a nymph called Thetis. Nymphs are supernatural beings, but certainly not gods. Achilles is very human, and (in the Iliad, at least) is very capable of being killed like anyone else. His mum's "supernatural" status allows her to appeal to the gods for help for her son, as we'll see later in the story, but Achilles is very much a man, not a god. He's a hero, of course, but still a man.

EDIT: Perhaps you're thinking of the famous "Achilles heel", in which Achilles was made invulnerable by Thetis dipping him in the river Styx, apart from his heel, which she held him by? This story dates from from another epic poem called the "Achilleid", written in the 1st century AD (ie, about 900 years after the Iliad). There's no suggestion of him being invulnerable in the Iliad and, indeed, as we'll see, Thetis tells Achilles that if he decides to go off to war he will die in that war (which he does, although that story isn't told in the Iliad).

Ignore the original post, I had made a mix-up.

I've recently purchased (and am currently reading) a very interesting book on the death of Achilles, entitled The Death and Afterlife of Achilles, by Jonathan Burgess. A very interesting read that I recommend to anyone interested in Achilles.

[6charlong]

There are lots of odd things in the poem. For example, the girls are always called "pink cheeked" or "red cheeked." It sounds like they're blushing but I can't think why that's so important Homer doesn't tell us anything else about them. Modern writers describe a character's appearance if they men are about to go to war over them. Blushing might show something about the girl's character but I think any girl would blush if she found herself in a situation like those poor girls were in.

Also, people are always taking hold of someone's knees when they want something. What's with that anyway? For example at line 500 Homer has Thetis hitting Zeus up to whack the Greeks for the way they dissed her boy Achilleus:

"She came and sat beside him with her left hand embracing
his knees, but took him underneath the chin with her right hand
and spoke in supplication to lord Zeus son of Kronos..."

Now if Zeus is the Big Kahuna how is it Thetis gets away with that? We don't know much about monarchs in America but I can't imagine someone going up to Queen Elizabeth and grabbing hold of her like that to ask for something.

And why does he always say who the guy's father was? How many Zeuses are there anyway? Only one I think. Is he doing it just to make it rhyme? You can't tell from the translation.

Shoot, I'm only on Book 1. This thing is a pretty wild ride.

[issybird]

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

Damn woman can't you just make up your mind about anything and stick to it? You are so fickle. To be serious I found the six books a week pace excellent and easy to do while still fitting in other reading.

Did someone say mutabile semper femina?

In truth, I like six books myself, but I said it could be tweaked. I thought especially if some latecomers wanted to join, it would be hospitable to give them a chance to catch up. I think, generally speaking, a month should be enough for almost any book. Longer, and you risk losing the thought.

[Latinandgreek]

Originally Posted by 6charlong

There are lots of odd things in the poem. For example, the girls are always called "pink cheeked" or "red cheeked." It sounds like they're blushing but I can't think why that's so important Homer doesn't tell us anything else about them. Modern writers describe a character's appearance if they men are about to go to war over them. Blushing might show something about the girl's character but I think any girl would blush if she found herself in a situation like those poor girls were in.

Also, people are always taking hold of someone's knees when they want something. What's with that anyway? For example at line 500 Homer has Thetis hitting Zeus up to whack the Greeks for the way they dissed her boy Achilleus:

"She came and sat beside him with her left hand embracing
his knees, but took him underneath the chin with her right hand
and spoke in supplication to lord Zeus son of Kronos..."

Now if Zeus is the Big Kahuna how is it Thetis gets away with that? We don't know much about monarchs in America but I can't imagine someone going up to Queen Elizabeth and grabbing hold of her like that to ask for something.

And why does he always say who the guy's father was? How many Zeuses are there anyway? Only one I think. Is he doing it just to make it rhyme? You can't tell from the translation.

Shoot, I'm only on Book 1. This thing is a pretty wild ride.

The Iliad was born of a loooooong tradition of oral poetry. So long, in fact, that certain phrases used by Homer (such as 'immortal fame') can be found in Indian epic literature as well. Stock phrases are often re-used in certain phrases, as are epithets. The original Greek did not rhyme, rather it was written in dactylic hexameter which followed a specific pattern; often the stock phrases were used to keep the hexameter flowing as well. I'm probably not doing a great job of explaining this, am I? There are some great books on the subject of Indo-European poetics; I warmly recommend "How to Kill a Dragon" by Calvert Watkins.

[6charlong]

Originally Posted by Latinandgreek

The Iliad was born of a loooooong tradition of oral poetry. So long, in fact, that certain phrases used by Homer (such as 'immortal fame') can be found in Indian epic literature as well. Stock phrases are often re-used in certain phrases, as are epithets. The original Greek did not rhyme, rather it was written in dactylic hexameter which followed a specific pattern; often the stock phrases were used to keep the hexameter flowing as well. I'm probably not doing a great job of explaining this, am I? There are some great books on the subject of Indo-European poetics; I warmly recommend "How to Kill a Dragon" by Calvert Watkins.

Thanks, that's interesting. It sounds like they popped in those stock phrases like a chant. If the audience was used to it the effect should be the same as how rhyme helps rhythm in English poetry. It's an interesting idea which, come to think of it, is still used.

I know how in modern poetry (it's almost all lyrical poetry so it's hard to compare) but in modern poetry the meaning is in the voice of the poet (or singer) more than in the written words but listening to Homer in the original Greek doesn't work without knowing the language, nor is there any way of knowing how the ancients presented.

I once followed along in the text while listening to an audio tape of Ezra Pound reading his Cantos and it really illuminated the poet's meaning. This long poem is probably the same. I recently heard a rendition of "The Times They Are a'Changing" that was far different than the older Peter, Paul and Mary version, almost a different poem, and the ancients must have experienced different presentations of the Iliad the same.

I'm always stopping to puzzle over things. The thread is a big help in sorting it out.

[Carmelreader]

I can't believe how interesting book 1 is. I have wanted to read this, but I didn't expect to get hooked like I have. Of course I haven't started Book 2.

I do feel that I need a genealogy here. I am reading a copy without an intro. I was so surprised to read in the wiki that the Iliad only covers a few weeks in the last year of the Trojan war.

Do feel I need a genealogy.......

As an observation on the comment by 6charlong about repeated use of certain phrases it also seems to depend on the translation one has in hand. In the Lattimore translation that I finally settled on goddesses, or at least noble women, are regularly referred to as “of the white arms.” Juno is often described in this way as is Aphrodite and Hektor's wife. Yet when I searched for the phrase “white arms” in the ebook version of the Butler translation it was not to be found.

I have been struck by how often events are influenced by the immortal gods, whether just providing advice or inspiration to fight. Or even an active role in battle such as preventing harm to those they wish to protect or aiding in injuring or killing the enemy. Yet the behavior and motivation of these gods is often capricious and even child like. When Ares is injured in battle at the end of Book 5 (by Athena) he goes running back to Jove and says:

"Father Zeus, are you not angry looking on these acts of violence? We who are gods are forever have to endure the most horrible hurts, by each other's hatred, as we try to give favour to mortals. It is your fault we fight, since you brought forth this maniac daughter accursed, whose mind is fixed forever on unjust action. For all the rest, as many as are gods on Olympos, are obedient to you, and we all have rendered ourselves submissive. Yet you say nothing and do nothing to check this girl, letting her go free, since you begot this child of perdition, . . . "

Very much like on child running to complain to a parent about a sister who is being unfair in games they are playing together.

[Carmelreader]

Interestingly enough an ebook from Harper Collins posted by ADrake in Deals is very helpful. At least for me. Don't Know Much About Mytholgy. It had a timeline in there that was one of the things I wanted. I also think I will try another translation. I was reading Fitzgerald and he is using some roman names for the gods like Jove for Zeus.

[Billi]

Originally Posted by issybird

How do we feel about six books a week? Is it about right? Should we cut back a bit while people catch up?

Personally, I find it okay. Let's keep it this way.

[ctol]

No Harry, in answer to your questions I do not think they are either dire or the language flowery. I think they are very good translations.

For anyone interested in reading them, here are two good links for reading the lost epics fragments. Enjoy.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/EpicCycle.html

http://www.bartleby.com/241/