Windows 10 - free upgrade to those with PC using Windows 7 or 8

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

The big question, in my mind, is what does Microsoft mean by the life of the device. A lot of Windows users seem to use their hardware for longer than Mac users (for instance). This may end up being a raw deal for Microsoft, but at least it encourages people to use an up-to-date platform. That may enable them to better market their other products.

Most likely it means "for the life of the motherboard" or "the life of the drive image". Once Windows installs are activated the user license stays active indefinitely unless you switch mobo or reinstall on a new drive and need a new activation.

And Microsoft's intent is to migrate as many users to the new "Windows as a service" model. They'll be making their money off the Windows store, Office 365, Onedrive, and other services. No need to fret for their survival.

[wodin]

I think MS understands the problems inherent in a fractured user base much like Android has become since somewhere around version 2.X, and is making the effort to bring in as many as possible under the Win10 banner.

To do this they need to do two things 1) make it BETTER than 7 and 8.X, and 2) make it so cheap (free) that everyone will want to jump on board. Once they have a substantial fraction of the user base, they can more easily abandon older versions. They are hoping that they can do it in a year; we'll see.

It's interesting that they didn't include XP and Vista in the free upgrade, does that imply that they will abandon those in any case as they have been threatening to for years?

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by dickloraine

It is a while since I read something about that and I am in no way an expert, but I remember that some specialists accuse the makers of this tests to make them on purpose to make ms look bad.

Really? Because immediately after, you say

MS uses a completely different approach then others. One area were defender is not as good as the others is heuristics. By the way, no av is perfect in that. But MS does not do much heuristics at all. That gets them bad tests. For everything not totally new it is as good as the others.

And what the AV specialists universally say is that MS defender is garbage... because it sucks at detecting recent viruses.
And recent viruses are no less a threat than old ones. Perhaps more so, in fact.

I for one rather take nearly no false positives and very good performance over that slightly more security.

That is a dangerous decision, and assumption that the increase in security is only "slightly".

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by shalym

So wait...do you mean that there are driver issues in Linux???? I thought that Linux didn't have to deal with such things as drivers??? (I know that this isn't the case, but it IS what was implied by rcentros with his "straight forward simplicity of Linux" comment)

rcentros did not say there are no drivers, he said the drivers do not cause problems. They don't. However, in some cases, a driver may not exist -- which is a whole 'nother story.

Also, it was actually this thread: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=235138 that I was thinking of with Gregg, but there's also this one https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=253163
It may seem as if I'm intentionally picking on Gregg, but I'm really not. These are the same issues that most people have with using Linux. They want to do something that is easy in Windows or Mac, but is complex in Linux.

Actually, the process was the same on linux. Gregg conflated the issue of "using an ereader on linux" with "using Windows-only software like specifically in this case Adibe Digital Editions on linux". I only wish people had been more helpful in that thread instead of haring off in every direction.

Linux users talk about how "most people only need a simple word processor and a web browser" and that's true. It all works fine, right up until they want to print out that document or web page or email. They go to Best Buy, and pick up a shiny new printer, and plug it in, and expect it to be recognized and installed automatically. Oops.

So they call the Geek Squad at Best Buy, and are told, "sorry, we don't support Linux". They call the manufacturer and are usually told the same thing.

They then call the person who talked them into using Linux in the first place (the evangelist), and the first few times, the evangelist is exceedingly helpful, and helps them immediately. After the first 5 or 6 times, though, the evangelist's patience starts wearing thin. They start putting the user off, and saying "I'm busy right now, I'll be over in a few days".

Eventually, the user either gives up completely, or teaches themselves how to use the command line and do it for themselves.

Guess how many teach themselves?

Shari

Attaching peripherals is usually fairly simple. Although certain types, like printers, have had a certain notoriety, this has gotten much better recently. Recent versions of Ubuntu for example have a tool that scans for local printers and allows you to click through setting it up. Here is a guide that shows what to expect: https://www.linux.com/learn/tutorial...nters-in-linux

The most likely point of failure is once again, the nonexistence of the needed driver. But luckily the printer support package includes a wide variety of drivers, which get updated as needed. Again, though, you might find that certain printers simply aren't supported (yet).

My experience with being begged for help installing printers has thus far been limited to helping Windows users, believe it or not. I am exceedingly helpful regardless of OS used, if they need the help, and I don't give up after it becomes obvious that clueless users are still clueless users. Whether they be Windows or linux members of the Guild of Clueless is inconsequential.




I will definitely agree that Windows offers a lot more manufacturer support -- virtually everything comes with a prepackaged driver for Windows, but often nothing for linux.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Because now that Windows 10 is going to be free for many many Windows users, the minority that is Linux users cannot say to use Linux because it's free. They are afraid for their minority OS being made even less relevant then it already is.

And to stick on topic, has anyone running the latest Windows 10 beta tried Miracast to a smart TV and if so, how well does it work?

Not only is Windows still not going to be free (a limited-time offer is not a guarantee in perpetuity), but I have many reasons for choosing linux over Windows, such as better support for old hardware, not needing AV, preferring a command-line-based environment, the ability to customize the look and feel with different desktop environments, and somewhere near the back, the cost of Windows.

If Windows could do all the other things I need my computer to do, I wouldn't be so averse to paying for it.
Also, I wouldn't promptly consign the free copy of Windows that came with the PC to the bitbucket (or a miniscule and mostly-unused partition).

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

The most likely point of failure is once again, the nonexistence of the needed driver. But luckily the printer support package includes a wide variety of drivers, which get updated as needed. Again, though, you might find that certain printers simply aren't supported (yet).

There is another point that many computer enthusiasts often miss, especially with regard to printers and camera's. 'Normal' people often buy a printer or camera because it can do some "special" stuff, such as print onto CD's, create calendars, or photo-albums, or whatever. The catch is, you need the manufacturer's software to do this if you want wizards and automatic stuff and templates and all that. This software is available for Windows and Mac only, most of the time; sometimes not even for Mac.

Believe it or not, but there are a lot of people who *WANT* to use the manufacturer's software (or even need to, because they don't have anything else), and when running Linux, they'll hit a brick wall.

*After the Ubuntu setup wizard...*

"OK, nice. The test page works. Now where is my calendar creation program mentioned on the box? Hm. Maybe it's on the CD."

*Pops in CD*
*Double-clicks setup.exe*

*** ERROR ***

* Hear a cry of despair and a dying wail as the user flings himself and the computer out of a fifth story apartment window *

[shalym]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

There is another point that many computer enthusiasts often miss, especially with regard to printers and camera's. 'Normal' people often buy a printer or camera because it can do some "special" stuff, such as print onto CD's, create calendars, or photo-albums, or whatever. The catch is, you need the manufacturer's software to do this if you want wizards and automatic stuff and templates and all that. This software is available for Windows and Mac only, most of the time; sometimes not even for Mac.

Believe it or not, but there are a lot of people who *WANT* to use the manufacturer's software (or even need to, because they don't have anything else), and when running Linux, they'll hit a brick wall.

*After the Ubuntu setup wizard...*

"OK, nice. The test page works. Now where is my calendar creation program mentioned on the box? Hm. Maybe it's on the CD."

*Pops in CD*
*Double-clicks setup.exe*

*** ERROR ***

* Hear a cry of despair and a dying wail as the user flings himself and the computer out of a fifth story apartment window *

Exactly.

Shari

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by shalym

So you're saying that all devices "just work" in Linux? Because seriously, let's ask Gregg Bell about that. There's also this by Dngrsone

No, I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that 1) Linux doesn't break down because of weird (unexplainable) issues that have different fixes for every user and 2) When Linux does break down, there's usually a concrete reason and a straightforward fix. I am saying that Linux's text configuration files are much simpler and more solid than the huge, overly complex, Windows Registry file.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by shalym

Linux users talk about how "most people only need a simple word processor and a web browser" and that's true. It all works fine, right up until they want to print out that document or web page or email. They go to Best Buy, and pick up a shiny new printer, and plug it in, and expect it to be recognized and installed automatically. Oops.

Hyperventilate much? I didn't realize so much anti-Linux FUD could be crammed into such a small space. Let me assure you that printing with Linux is more solid and straight forward than printing with Windows -- unless you own one of the "braindead" Windows printers that depend on Windows-only drivers for its "firmware." And, often, even with those printers, Linux developers have hacked driver solutions. It's obvious you haven't tried Linux (or haven't tried it in a long, long while) and are just depending on the Windows FUDsters for your "facts" about Linux.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Because now that Windows 10 is going to be free for many many Windows users, the minority that is Linux users cannot say to use Linux because it's free. They are afraid for their minority OS being made even less relevant then it already is.

And to stick on topic, has anyone running the latest Windows 10 beta tried Miracast to a smart TV and if so, how well does it work?

Windows -- for most users -- is already "free." At least the price is included with the OEM hardware. Most Linux users, like me, pay the "Windows tax" when we buy our computers and install Linux over the Windows install. So "free" Windows 10 is not really going to change a thing. And, I'm guessing, free Windows 10 is going to end being "lease by the month" Windows 10, after the first year. So what will be "free" will probably be the first year "trial" period.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

*After the Ubuntu setup wizard...*

"OK, nice. The test page works. Now where is my calendar creation program mentioned on the box? Hm. Maybe it's on the CD."

*Pops in CD*
*Double-clicks setup.exe*

*** ERROR ***

* Hear a cry of despair and a dying wail as the user flings himself and the computer out of a fifth story apartment window *

Or the user looks into the Ubuntu repository for a substitute or replacement application. If it's not among the 30,000 or so free programs in the Ubuntu repository he can install with a single click, he can still Google for a substitute program and usually find it within minutes. Usually there is a .deb package for the program and -- voila' -- after downloading and another single click install, he has the program. That sure was hard!

Let's look at my Brother HL-2280DW printer. Nice, inexpensive printer/scanner/copier. It comes with PaperPort OCR for Windows (maybe for the Mac -- I'm not sure). Of course PaperPort doesn't work on my Linux Mint. So, do I "throw my Linux computer out the window?" as described in your obviously FUDish example? No ... I simply look for a substitute for PaperPort and -- voila' -- install it. In my case I chose Tesseract, originally developed by Xerox, put in the public domain, where Google (among others) has continued development. Since Tesseract is a terminal program, I add a graphic front-end for it, yagf. It works like a charm. That sure was hard.

This is how most Linux users go about their business. First, since I use Linux, I check to see if the printer has good support for Linux. Brother supplies Linux printer and scanner drivers for its printers. Excellent. I buy the Brother printer. I follow the driver installation instructions -- everything works with the built-in programs in Linux and I find the open source OCR replacement for PaperPort. Minor problem solved.

And absolutely no hysterics or hyperventilating necessary. I guess I could sit and whine about not having a Linux version of PaperPort, but I would just as soon use my computer, thank you.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by shalym

Exactly.

As if you have the hands-on knowledge to make a judgment on the subject. Although, I admit, this may be the case with Linux newbies who don't want to invest the time necessary to learn a little about Linux -- and who go running back to Windows the minute they find they have to engage their brain -- but it's not true with the vast majority of Linux users who, after investing a little time to learn a new OS, find that solving problems in Linux is often much more straightforward and simple than doing so in Windows. And Linux is much more solid, so there are many fewer problems to solve.

I was once one of those newbies -- I tried Linux several times (dual booting and in virtual machines) and each time went back to Windows, before it finally occurred to me that I had spent years learning DOS and Windows, why should I expect to know Linux immediately without any effort? Once I worked through Linux's differences (file structure, etc.) I found it made more sense than Windows ever did. I'm glad I stuck with it.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by rcentros

As if you have the hands-on knowledge to make a judgment on the subject. Although, I admit, this may be the case with Linux newbies who don't want to invest the time necessary to learn a little about Linux ...

As I said, Linux enthusiasts (or Windows dislikers) continually forget the only thing that matters in the end: does Linux run the software customers wish to use?

In many cases, the answer is "no", and that is where the matter ends for most people.

Even if the OS runs the software (such as the game Pillars of Eternity from 2015, or Neverwinter Nights from 2002), it's not always straightforward, especially in the case of games. Many times you will need THIS Linux distribution, you will need THAT driver, with THOSE settings, or stuff isn't supported officially. It can be very hard to run two games on the same installation if requirements conflict, especially if they are several years apart.

On Windows, you mostly just need Windows XP or up, with sufficient hardware power and the latest drivers. The only snag you might hit is that a new game requires a 64-bit Windows. Then you go "click setup.exe, next, next, finish, install the latest patch if any, play." That's as far as customers want to go if they can help it.

I know, Ubuntu and Mint can do this, using their software centre for programs that are in their distribution, but for third party programs, it can get rather complicated quickly, especially if you try to run it on a distribution that is not officially supported.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by rcentros

Hyperventilate much? I didn't realize so much anti-Linux FUD could be crammed into such a small space. Let me assure you that printing with Linux is more solid and straight forward than printing with Windows -- unless you own one of the "braindead" Windows printers that depend on Windows-only drivers for its "firmware." And, often, even with those printers, Linux developers have hacked driver solutions. It's obvious you haven't tried Linux (or haven't tried it in a long, long while) and are just depending on the Windows FUDsters for your "facts" about Linux.

I actually use Linux every day as part of my job, and have supported people on it--real people who need support (people like Gregg) who were convinced to switch because of old hardware or just "because it's better". The scenario I outlined was not "hyperventilating". It was an actual scenario that I had to deal with less than a year ago with a relative who switched because my son convinced him to, and then my son decided that he didn't want to deal with supporting him anymore.

Thanks for playing, though

Shari

[shalym]

Originally Posted by rcentros

As if you have the hands-on knowledge to make a judgment on the subject. Although, I admit, this may be the case with Linux newbies who don't want to invest the time necessary to learn a little about Linux -- and who go running back to Windows the minute they find they have to engage their brain -- but it's not true with the vast majority of Linux users who, after investing a little time to learn a new OS, find that solving problems in Linux is often much more straightforward and simple than doing so in Windows. And Linux is much more solid, so there are many fewer problems to solve.

I was once one of those newbies -- I tried Linux several times (dual booting and in virtual machines) and each time went back to Windows, before it finally occurred to me that I had spent years learning DOS and Windows, why should I expect to know Linux immediately without any effort? Once I worked through Linux's differences (file structure, etc.) I found it made more sense than Windows ever did. I'm glad I stuck with it.

Ahh...but see, the people that I'm talking about are the ones who never really learned how to use Windows or DOS, either. They just want to pop in the disc (or click on a link) and do what they need to do. They don't WANT to learn how things work--they just want it to work without HAVING to know how it works.

Shari