Windows 10 - free upgrade to those with PC using Windows 7 or 8

Originally Posted by dickloraine

Of course the question was, why linux is discussed at all in this topic.

Because people brought it up? Because at least a few of those references were not flattering or spread misinformation (or at least an incomplete picture)? Because news is thin on Windows 10 at the moment? (Though I don't quite understand why since the preview is in the wild.)

Ultimately though, it is because people wanted to discuss it. That goes for both Linux and Windows users. After all, it takes at least two people to carry on a conversation.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

After all, it takes at least two people to carry on a conversation.

Tell that to my eight-year-old.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by ApK

Tell that to my eight-year-old.

Another Linux evangelist?

[ApK]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Another Linux evangelist?

Well, she talks about how much she likes her Android tablet, so, according to eschwartz, YES!

Originally Posted by ApK

Well, she talks about how much she likes her Android tablet, so, according to eschwartz, YES!

Careful there. Everyone knows that Linux users are hackers. You may end up waking up to the NSA breaking down your door one night with an all expenses paid trip to a special bay resort in Cuba.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Windows 8 onwards has an adequate AV program built in which downloads new AV definitions once a day automatically ("Windows Defender"), so no need to worry about that. Windows updates happen once a month (the second Tuesday of the month: "patch Tuesday") which doesn't need a special reboot: most people shut their computer down at the end of the day, and that's when the updates will be applied. Apps like Java, Flash, etc, auto-update and don't normally need a reboot.

My mother, for one, prefers to leave her computer on rather than have to wait for Windows to start.

And many people will argue with you (violently) about whether Microsoft's builtin AV is worth the disk space it consumes.

Microsoft Windows Defender Review.
Verdict : If you're relying solely on Windows Defender for your antivirus protection, you're anything but defended.

Review after review rates it as pathetic when compared to other free AV suites.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,1926596,00.asp
http://www.tomsguide.com/us/windows-...view-2209.html
http://www.pcworld.com/article/25987...r_options.html
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/security-esse...er-2015-review
http://www.darkreading.com/vulnerabi.../d-id/1111240?


The consensus is that it is severely incapable of actually detecting malware (although it does well at removing what it does find)... possibly the price you pay for having a very lightweight AV that doesn't eat system resources.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by shalym

So you're saying that all devices "just work" in Linux? Because seriously, let's ask Gregg Bell about that. There's also this by Dngrsone

Shari

Sorry, I have no idea why Gregg Bell is having problems with invalid forum searches.

I do know he has been having a lot of problems with a faulty Sony ereader (on both Windows and linux) if that is what you meant.

I will not grant you hardware problems as being a problem with linux -- even though the Sony does run linux.

And Dngrsone appears (from the current state of things) to be suffering from issues with Canonical's bluetooth packaging. I will note that the mouse manufacturer does not officially support linux, and the open-source community has to reverse-engineer these things... and even then we end up on roughly an even footing with Windows (with its manufacturer support).
So it could also be that no one has written the right rules for linux yet.

...

searching online for his mouse, I got this: https://forums.logitech.com/t5/Mice-...s/td-p/1377464

Hey, guess what? That mouse doesn't support Bluetooth connections on anything less than Windows 8.1, because reasons.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

Because people brought it up? Because at least a few of those references were not flattering or spread misinformation (or at least an incomplete picture)? Because news is thin on Windows 10 at the moment? (Though I don't quite understand why since the preview is in the wild.)

Ultimately though, it is because people wanted to discuss it. That goes for both Linux and Windows users. After all, it takes at least two people to carry on a conversation.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by ApK

Tell that to my eight-year-old.

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Another Linux evangelist?

Originally Posted by ApK

Well, she talks about how much she likes her Android tablet, so, according to eschwartz, YES!

Originally Posted by BWinmill

Careful there. Everyone knows that Linux users are hackers. You may end up waking up to the NSA breaking down your door one night with an all expenses paid trip to a special bay resort in Cuba.

And on that note, all my friends are convinced I am the one who hacked North Korea.

Careful there, ApK. Raising a firebrand I see.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Sorry, I have no idea why Gregg Bell is having problems with invalid forum searches.

I do know he has been having a lot of problems with a faulty Sony ereader (on both Windows and linux) if that is what you meant.

I will not grant you hardware problems as being a problem with linux -- even though the Sony does run linux.

And Dngrsone appears (from the current state of things) to be suffering from issues with Canonical's bluetooth packaging. I will note that the mouse manufacturer does not officially support linux, and the open-source community has to reverse-engineer these things... and even then we end up on roughly an even footing with Windows (with its manufacturer support).
So it could also be that no one has written the right rules for linux yet.

...

searching online for his mouse, I got this: https://forums.logitech.com/t5/Mice-...s/td-p/1377464

Hey, guess what? That mouse doesn't support Bluetooth connections on anything less than Windows 8.1, because reasons.

So wait...do you mean that there are driver issues in Linux???? I thought that Linux didn't have to deal with such things as drivers??? (I know that this isn't the case, but it IS what was implied by rcentros with his "straight forward simplicity of Linux" comment)

Also, it was actually this thread: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=235138 that I was thinking of with Gregg, but there's also this one https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=253163
It may seem as if I'm intentionally picking on Gregg, but I'm really not. These are the same issues that most people have with using Linux. They want to do something that is easy in Windows or Mac, but is complex in Linux.

Linux users talk about how "most people only need a simple word processor and a web browser" and that's true. It all works fine, right up until they want to print out that document or web page or email. They go to Best Buy, and pick up a shiny new printer, and plug it in, and expect it to be recognized and installed automatically. Oops.

So they call the Geek Squad at Best Buy, and are told, "sorry, we don't support Linux". They call the manufacturer and are usually told the same thing.

They then call the person who talked them into using Linux in the first place (the evangelist), and the first few times, the evangelist is exceedingly helpful, and helps them immediately. After the first 5 or 6 times, though, the evangelist's patience starts wearing thin. They start putting the user off, and saying "I'm busy right now, I'll be over in a few days".

Eventually, the user either gives up completely, or teaches themselves how to use the command line and do it for themselves.

Guess how many teach themselves?

Shari

[dickloraine]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

My mother, for one, prefers to leave her computer on rather than have to wait for Windows to start.

And many people will argue with you (violently) about whether Microsoft's builtin AV is worth the disk space it consumes.



Review after review rates it as pathetic when compared to other free AV suites.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,1926596,00.asp
http://www.tomsguide.com/us/windows-...view-2209.html
http://www.pcworld.com/article/25987...r_options.html
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/security-esse...er-2015-review
http://www.darkreading.com/vulnerabi.../d-id/1111240?


The consensus is that it is severely incapable of actually detecting malware (although it does well at removing what it does find)... possibly the price you pay for having a very lightweight AV that doesn't eat system resources.

It is a while since I read something about that and I am in no way an expert, but I remember that some specialists accuse the makers of this tests to make them on purpose to make ms look bad. MS uses a completely different approach then others. One area were defender is not as good as the others is heuristics. By the way, no av is perfect in that. But MS does not do much heuristics at all. That gets them bad tests. For everything not totally new it is as good as the others. I for one rather take nearly no false positives and very good performance over that slightly more security.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by dickloraine

Of course the question was, why linux is discussed at all in this topic.

Because now that Windows 10 is going to be free for many many Windows users, the minority that is Linux users cannot say to use Linux because it's free. They are afraid for their minority OS being made even less relevant then it already is.

And to stick on topic, has anyone running the latest Windows 10 beta tried Miracast to a smart TV and if so, how well does it work?

Originally Posted by shalym

They want to do something that is easy in Windows or Mac, but is complex in Linux.

I hope you realize that there are many situations when doing something in OS X and/or Windows is more complex than it is in Linux. Unfortunately, the different strengths and weaknesses of these operating systems makes it exceedingly easy to cherry pick examples and counter examples.

Take installing hardware. If your Linux distribution supports a piece of hardware, you can usually plug it in and expect it to work. That only sometimes happens under Windows. While OS X is similar to Linux in this respect, Linux supports more devices in most categories. Of course you can always choose the counter example of unsupported hardware. Short of outdated hardware, Windows will likely support it. The installation process is usually more involved, but that is nothing compared to the contortions that some Linux users go through in order to attempt to get something working.

Or take installing software. If you're sticking to open source software, the process is usually: click on icon to load the "store", click on search field, type in search terms, click on a result to see a description and screenshots, (repeat until you find what you want), click on the install button, (wait for download and installation), click on program icon to use the program. You also have a categories option if you would rather browse for software. In the case of Ubuntu, you even have this option for some commercial software. Apple and Microsoft have store that enable a similar path to be taken for a small subset of software. In reality you usually have to obtain software through other means. Whatever means you choose, the discovery process is more complex. When you get to the installation phase there are varying degrees of interaction. That interaction ranges from double clicking on the downloaded file and dragging the program icon into the Application folder in OS X, to installers of varying complexity in OS X and Windows. In the case of installers, Windows installers are almost universally much more complex than those in OS X. Of course some Linux software is not distributed through the package managers (ahem, calibre), in those cases you're talking about anything from a Windows level of complexity, or worse. Yet the vast majority of software installations under Linux does not involve a separate installation step at all.

The list can go on, depending upon which scope of features you examine and which subset of exceptions you consider meaningful. On top the of generalities, you also have to consider that some users will run into far more problems than others (regardless of platform) simply on the merit of what they use their machine for.

It all works fine, right up until they want to print out that document or web page or email. They go to Best Buy, and pick up a shiny new printer, and plug it in, and expect it to be recognized and installed automatically. Oops.

Except that the printer would have worked without issues if they bought one that is known to work with Linux. Now I know that you can pick up any old printer and expect it to work under Windows because every vendor supports Windows. They would be foolish not to. That's one of the advantages of Windows. But let's look at things from a different angle. People malign OS X for it's printer support much less frequently. It isn't because OS X provides better printer support. It is because Mac users typically verify that the printer supports OS X prior to purchase. People seem to have double standards.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Because now that Windows 10 is going to be free for many many Windows users, the minority that is Linux users cannot say to use Linux because it's free. They are afraid for their minority OS being made even less relevant then it already is.

That is not what Microsoft said. Microsoft said that Windows 10 is going to be free for a subset of users for the first year. We still don't have specifics on the paid subscriptions after that first year. There is not even a suggestion that the software that runs under Windows will be free (though you could always use a large collection of open source and freeware products on Windows).

And that's assuming that you believe that Linux users are rational. It is far more likely that a large cross section of Linux users believe that Microsoft is going to do some sort of bait-and-switch routine that will draw the ire of even more Windows users.

More details on the freeness of Windows 10:

http://arstechnica.com/information-t...stions-remain/

From the tone of the article, I get the impression that it's yours to keep if you update within the first year (a bit like the Windows 8 Pro upgrade for $40). Some strings attached, but nothing that will matter to the vast majority of users. Upgrade paths are also outlined in that article.

The big question, in my mind, is what does Microsoft mean by the life of the device. A lot of Windows users seem to use their hardware for longer than Mac users (for instance). This may end up being a raw deal for Microsoft, but at least it encourages people to use an up-to-date platform. That may enable them to better market their other products.