Books and Problematic Authors

[haertig]

Originally Posted by issybird

I’m invoking Godwin’s Law here. You lose.

That's a good one! I hadn't heard of that (I had to look it up, but I'll remember to use it going forward).

I guess I'll have to come up with some other book that was written by someone who is universally disliked as an example. Unfortunately, since I am clueless about if the authors I read are male or female, black or white, let alone judged offensive by some - I can't come up with a different example at the moment. Heinlein maybe? Oh wait - that guy who wrote the Gor novels in the 60's. I think he was hated because of the way he portrayed women. OK, so I amend my previous comment to "Should people be shamed for reading The Tarnsman of Gor?"

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by haertig

...so I amend my previous comment to "Should people be shamed for reading The Tarnsman of Gor?"

Fun fact: My grandma sent me a copy of Tarnsman of Gor. She loved schlocky sword and planet sci-fi. My understanding is Norman's books don't move heavily into his sadistic beliefs until you're a few books in.

If grandma only knew!

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Paperbackstash

Some of the authors who have been cancelled on twitter had their books pulled before publications and contracts dropped.

Names. Authors, book titles and publishers, please. Whose art is the literary world being deprived of in this day and age of anybody-can-write/sell-a-book?

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Names. Authors, book titles and publishers, please.

Hachette Book Group officially pulled the release of the Woody Allen memoir after backlash from Ronan Farrow and a walkout from HBG employees because "Catch and Kill" was being worked on at the same time, and it concerned Woody Allen among others. There were claims Hachette had not fact checked the memoir (though I'll point out memoirs are generally only ever half truths of remembrances) I'm not sure how far along they were in the publishing of the memoir either.

I'm not defending either side here, just giving an example of a book which was dropped by a publisher because of backlash from others.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I don't believe in "cancel culture." It's a phrase only used by people who are just as bull-headed and unwilling to listen to others' opinions as the people they choose to slap the label on.

There is another meaning to "cancel culture". That is to cancel TV shows without giving them enough of a chance. A lot of TV shows don't make it past 1 or 2 seasons.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Hachette Book Group officially pulled the release of the Woody Allen memoir after backlash from Ronan Farrow and a walkout from HBG employees because "Catch and Kill" was being worked on at the same time, and it concerned Woody Allen among others. There were claims Hachette had not fact checked the memoir (though I'll point out memoirs are generally only ever half truths of remembrances) I'm not sure how far along they were in the publishing of the memoir either.

I'm not defending either side here, just giving an example of a book which was dropped by a publisher because of backlash from others.

Thanks for the example. Though I'd say no one and no-thing was truly cancelled since his memoir was snapped up by another publisher and released (and made many Best Seller lists). Partly, the publisher said, to take a stand against Allen's critics. So it's not like his voice and story were silenced. He wrote it, someone published it, and people bought/read it (and others continued to boycott it).

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Paperbackstash

The danger in this is publishers drop author contracts based off the cancel culture trends on Twitter as well. It can become uncomfortably close to the old days of book censorship and book burning. People argue with me it is not, but I point out books were banned by parent groups in schools in the days of old for their thoughts at the time on what was wrong or inappropriate. If a book is boycotted by some readers by personal choice, fine, but for the books to be dropped or pulled until we keep getting them out of the mainstream availability line or circulation, we'll eventually we left with only some views to buy/read. That really is censorship and speaks of virtual book burning. Books used to be burned to get them out of circulation and the public availability, we just do it different ways now.

There was a case that went to court about a group of parents wanting a book about two male penguins taking care of an orphaned egg to be removed from the school library. The parents lost the case.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DNSB

You may have seen it as shaming. I asked if you were comfortable which is not quite the same thing. Your response suggested that you were aware of the issues around MZB.

And, yes, for me, child abuse is red flag. What consenting adults do to each other is their business. A quote I remember hearing from Pierre Elliott Trudeau: "there's no place for the state in the bedrooms of the nation" and "what's done in private between adults doesn't concern the Criminal Code."

His statement left out one very important word...CONSENTING!

[JSWolf]

What would you think if a friend ould buy a book by an author you knew participated in child abuse (aka MZB) after you've pointed this out to said friend?

[Sirtel]

I keep the person of the author and their work well separated in my mind. That is, I don't care all that much what the author did or what sort of person they were. And yes, I still read MZB's work. Now I'd lie if I said her actions toward her own children had no emotional impact on me at all. They do and yes, they taint her work to some extent. But not so much I would refuse to read it. Not that MZB has ever been my favorite author. Still, I do own quite a lot of her books and have no intention of deleting them from my library, no matter what their author did or didn't do.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

What would you think if a friend ould buy a book by an author you knew participated in child abuse (aka MZB) after you've pointed this out to said friend?

If I wanted to read the book, I'd buy it. Yes, I have bought her books even after learning about her history. And it's not my business to dictate to other people, including my friends, which books they should or should not read.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

There is another meaning to "cancel culture". That is to cancel TV shows without giving them enough of a chance. A lot of TV shows don't make it past 1 or 2 seasons.

Which has absolutely no relevance here as for this discussion the phrase is accepted to mean cancelling a book/author due to their views and or actions. Further if you were to go up to the average Joe on the street and ask them what they thought cancel culture meant, networks cancelling shows would not be the answer.

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Thanks for the example. Though I'd say no one and no-thing was truly cancelled since his memoir was snapped up by another publisher and released (and made many Best Seller lists). Partly, the publisher said, to take a stand against Allen's critics. So it's not like his voice and story were silenced. He wrote it, someone published it, and people bought/read it (and others continued to boycott it).

Agreed, my heart isn't really in the debate of cancel culture truly destroying authors. Though I do think outrage culture may be a better phrase, especially for the topic at hand. it's far too easy to get a book published for cancel culture to really apply any power, especially as the wealth of the author increases. Even if no publisher will touch the book, the author can always self publish, which becomes easier as wealth increases.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

His statement left out one very important word...CONSENTING!

Jon, it's implied in his statement. No one is going to make a reasonable argument for the government to not litigate against child abusers using that quote.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

What would you think if a friend ould buy a book by an author you knew participated in child abuse (aka MZB) after you've pointed this out to said friend?

That they wanted to read the book, and I didn't have a copy to lend/give them already. Now if my friend turned around and said "I support the right to abuse children" I'd take a very different view. Buying a book does not imply you support the authors views.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

That they wanted to read the book, and I didn't have a copy to lend/give them already. Now if my friend turned around and said "I support the right to abuse children" I'd take a very different view. Buying a book does not imply you support the authors views.

Yep. Even enjoying a book doesn't imply that. For example, I have to confess I have read a couple of more perverse books in the infamous Gor series and enjoyed them (though they'd never make my top 100 list). Does that mean I support the views those books express? Hell no. But I'm perfectly capable of enjoying fictional content I'd violently disagree with in real life.

[MarjaE]

The author's actions can matter.

Without knowing the background, the SCUM Manifesto may seem like a satire of misogynistic attitudes, turning them around, but knowing that, it's not a satire.

I know there are accusations against Scott Lynch and Elizabeth Bear. I'm not planning to buy any more of their work until this is resolved, one way or another, and if I re-read Karen Memery, I'm sure the accusations will change a lot.

[Thasaidon]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Perhaps not lumping issues you can't get behind with dismissive, scare-quoted, media-popularized labels (a tactic which is so prevalent at the moment) could help with that?

I admitted to perhaps being a little too sensitive. I also sometimes operate my mouth before my brain is in gear but I hate the way the cancel culture tries to censor people and free speech.

You do not seem to agree and seem to believe that there is no cancel culture. You have a right to your opinion.