What Enhancements Should the Next Kindle PW Have?

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Please explain why a phone, a laptop, and earphones can use USB C but an ereader couldn't.

You might want to check this article for the basis of Jon's prejudice against USB-C: A Google engineer sacrificed his Chromebook Pixel to test USB-C cables. If you search on Benson Leung, pixel and USB-C, you will get quite a few hits. Benson ran into quite a few cables that had issues but the one that destroyed his Pixel and test equipment set a new standard for sloppy manufacturing and no testing.

Basically the SurjTech cable (USB-C to USB-A) was miswired with the V+ on the USB-C end tied to gnd on the USB_A end and gnd on the USB-C end tied to V+ on the USB-A end. There were several other stories around that time about other manufacturers and miswired USB-C cables and one about a cable where none of the pins were connected. Much like when USB 3 came out and there were cheap cables that claimed to be USB 3 but only implemented the 4 wires of the USB 1/2 connector.

Caveat emptor.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DNSB

You might want to check this article for the basis of Jon's prejudice against USB-C: A Google engineer sacrificed his Chromebook Pixel to test USB-C cables. If you search on Benson Leung, pixel and USB-C, you will get quite a few hits. Benson ran into quite a few cables that had issues but the one that destroyed his Pixel and test equipment set a new standard for sloppy manufacturing and no testing.

Basically the SurjTech cable (USB-C to USB-A) was miswired with the V+ on the USB-C end tied to gnd on the USB_A end and gnd on the USB-C end tied to V+ on the USB-A end. There were several other stories around that time about other manufacturers and miswired USB-C cables and one about a cable where none of the pins were connected. Much like when USB 3 came out and there were cheap cables that claimed to be USB 3 but only implemented the 4 wires of the USB 1/2 connector.

Caveat emptor.

The currently available Y cables/connectors will not work properly with 5v devices. So that's a current problem. The other problem is that we don't know which USB-C cables could be a risk or not. There a lot of unknown cable brands just on Amazon and picking a good one is an unknown. USB-C needs to be scrapped for a new regulated standard.

[NullNix]

Originally Posted by DNSB

You might want to check this article for the basis of Jon's prejudice against USB-C: A Google engineer sacrificed his Chromebook Pixel to test USB-C cables. If you search on Benson Leung, pixel and USB-C, you will get quite a few hits. Benson ran into quite a few cables that had issues but the one that destroyed his Pixel and test equipment set a new standard for sloppy manufacturing and no testing.

Benson has lost *several* Pixels to bad USB cabling by this point.

[Quoth]

Adding a more than 5V mode to USB was a totally stupid decision. Or allowing more than 1A ever on USB.
Also things that can't charge while using peripherals is stupid. Bring back coax power connectors but standardise size for different voltages.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Please explain why a phone, a laptop, and earphones can use USB C but an ereader couldn't.

Personally I won't buy ANYTHING that needs a USB-C power supply or has USB-C host outlets.
Engineering wise it's a spec ASKING for trouble. A device telling host what VOLTAGE to apply?
The standard solution is that apart from naked cell / battery chargers (Lead Acid Car battery, or Lithium pack with no internal charger) is that a connector from a host or a power supply ONLY supplies a fixed voltage.
The existing USB charge currents other than C are NOT decided by the host, they are only 5V (+/- 0.2V) and the slave gadget examines the D- or D+ pins to see if more than 100mA can drawn. If you only wire +V and 0V, you get 5V and the current supply is whatever the host can do and the slave may take only 100mA or 500mA max depending on era.

USB-C is stupid.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Personally I won't buy ANYTHING that needs a USB-C power supply or has USB-C host outlets.
Engineering wise it's a spec ASKING for trouble. A device telling host what VOLTAGE to apply?
The standard solution is that apart from naked cell / battery chargers (Lead Acid Car battery, or Lithium pack with no internal charger) is that a connector from a host or a power supply ONLY supplies a fixed voltage.
The existing USB charge currents other than C are NOT decided by the host, they are only 5V (+/- 0.2V) and the slave gadget examines the D- or D+ pins to see if more than 100mA can drawn. If you only wire +V and 0V, you get 5V and the current supply is whatever the host can do and the slave may take only 100mA or 500mA max depending on era.

USB-C is stupid.

I only have one thing that has a USB-C port and that's only used for charging. I use the cable that came with it. I did have a look to see about getting a second cable, but I have no idea what's a safe cable.

Yes USB-C was a big Fing mistake.

[NullNix]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Adding a more than 5V mode to USB was a totally stupid decision. Or allowing more than 1A ever on USB.

But... how would one adopt USB-C as a universal charger of things like laptops if constrained to charging so slowly? That was the whole point of USB-C in the first place.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by NullNix

But... how would one adopt USB-C as a universal charger of things like laptops if constrained to charging so slowly? That was the whole point of USB-C in the first place.

That's like asking how would USB power kitchen appliances.
USB should NOT be a universal charger for EVERYTHING.

This is exactly my argument. It's a stupid marketing decision and inherently ill conceived to make it power giant tablets or laptops. Bigger than 7" tablets all ought to have a separate coax or other power jack like laptops. Some used to have this, which meant that when used as a desktop replacement with slave devices on the USB they didn't go flat.

A USB C should only have added a peer to peer mode and a reversible and more durable connector. The micro USB is less robust than mini USB and the extra pin for USB2Go, switching from client to host is badly designed as is the fact that most micro USB ports can be in host mode and charge. The micro-USB was a lost opportunity, as indeed was USB 2.0 and USB 3.0

No USB gadget or host or charger should ever have been more than 1.5 A, even that is generous compared to 1A.

USB = Universal SERIAL Bus. The ability to power was originally to avoid having batteries in peripherals. Charging or desktop power of ANYTHING, shouldn't be the main purpose.

[NullNix]

Originally Posted by Quoth

That's like asking how would USB power kitchen appliances.
USB should NOT be a universal charger for EVERYTHING.

This is exactly my argument. It's a stupid marketing decision and inherently ill conceived to make it power giant tablets or laptops.

The idea is One Charger To Rule Them All. Seems like a damn good idea to me, if implementable, which thanks to the very features you're disparaging, it is.

(Also, this means you can have things like displays with both signal and power coming over USB-C. Much better than a separate power cord!)

Bigger than 7" tablets all ought to have a separate coax or other power jack like laptops.

Ugh, why? Inconvenient as hell and something else to drag around and get lost and/or broken.

No USB gadget or host or charger should ever have been more than 1.5 A, even that is generous compared to 1A.

USB = Universal SERIAL Bus. The ability to power was originally to avoid having batteries in peripherals. Charging or desktop power of ANYTHING, shouldn't be the main purpose.

I think the world has left you behind.

[j.p.s]

Originally Posted by NullNix

The idea is One Charger To Rule Them All. Seems like a damn good idea to me, if implementable, which thanks to the very features you're disparaging, it is.

Where do you draw the line?

Is there a line?

Should USB-C have supported electric car charging?

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by NullNix

The idea is One Charger To Rule Them All. Seems like a damn good idea to me, if implementable, which thanks to the very features you're disparaging, it is.

(Also, this means you can have things like displays with both signal and power coming over USB-C. Much better than a separate power cord!)

Both are truly stupid ideas, like personal flying taxies.

The only reliable "One for anything" chargers/PSUs have been 6V / 12V / 24V chargers for lead acid batteries. Even then they go wrong.

Universal small power supplies tend to be unreliable and waste space as they have to be rated for the highest power. A common way to fry gadgets. USB-C is a stupid attempt to automate the voltage selection and use a data port. If it's really a universal charger it will be about x4 on average larger than needed and more expensive and less reliable.

Laptop PSUs have tended to come in about 4 voltage ratings and various power ratings. Some will work on different models. Replacing that with USB-C for power/charging is pointless and only suits a subset of skinny low performance laptops.

Any display taking more than about 5W to 8W needs a power connector. A decent display can't sensibly run from GPU over USB. Displays ought to use HDMI. I've had even a phone and tablet with micro HDMI, which is far better than Wireless solutions or USB.

A decent display is about 35W. More than twice what a Mac USB-C port can power.

Also crazy extra load for a laptop other gadget to power any sort of decent display larger than 12".

Trying to make an existing thing do stuff never intended breaks compatibility and reliability.
Combing data and power for more than 5W to 8W and calling it USB anything is stupid. By all means invent a new system that can do 30W, 4K HDR video and high speed peer to peer data. But where does the "Host" get the power? Double the capacity of the power brick for the laptop?
Note that Laptops can be 20W to 200W depending on CPU type/clock, GPU type/clock, screen size and resolution, HDD /SSD type and size. That's before you add the power for peripherals connected to USB ports.

[Quoth]

Short version: Ordinary phones and any ereader do not ever need USB-C. A properly certified cable can be used if a maker is stupid enough to only put USB-C ports on a laptop, or you only have a USB-C charger.

Note that faster charging of Lithium cells is more risk and shortens cell life.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by NullNix

But... how would one adopt USB-C as a universal charger of things like laptops if constrained to charging so slowly? That was the whole point of USB-C in the first place.

The problem is that USB-C is not regulated and it was very poorly designed. There are a lot of poor cables and unreliable chargers out there that can and will damage your equipment. Go on Amazon and look for USB-C cables and tell me which ones are reliable and which ones are not.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by DNSB

You might want to check this article for the basis of Jon's prejudice against USB-C: A Google engineer sacrificed his Chromebook Pixel to test USB-C cables. If you search on Benson Leung, pixel and USB-C, you will get quite a few hits. Benson ran into quite a few cables that had issues but the one that destroyed his Pixel and test equipment set a new standard for sloppy manufacturing and no testing.

Basically the SurjTech cable (USB-C to USB-A) was miswired with the V+ on the USB-C end tied to gnd on the USB_A end and gnd on the USB-C end tied to V+ on the USB-A end. There were several other stories around that time about other manufacturers and miswired USB-C cables and one about a cable where none of the pins were connected. Much like when USB 3 came out and there were cheap cables that claimed to be USB 3 but only implemented the 4 wires of the USB 1/2 connector.

Caveat emptor.

I'm quite familiar with Leung's work and four years ago I was quite cautious. Most people accept that technology changes. Perhaps not Amazon and some on this site but most people.

Walking upright was seriously delayed when early-adopters fell on their face. I think it's safe to say now, at this later date, that walking upright is fine. So is USB C or are we taking the position that Amazon Kindle has a secret they're keeping from every cellphone manufacturer in the world?

I want USB C and rapid charge on my Paperwhite 5. I do not want color, colored lights, mechanical buttons, or the ability to access the internet or make phone calls. I just want to read.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by NullNix

Benson has lost *several* Pixels to bad USB cabling by this point.

Nonsense. Care to provide a citation.

I have a variety of cables in a drawer. All, in that drawer, are USB C. I use any cable with my cell phone or laptop. But, some won't rapid charge, or super-rapid charge, my phones. All the cables charge my laptop, given a proper charging block, but some are faster than others.

Perhaps we should trash USB C but until we do I want USB C on a Kindle for rapid charging.

Perhaps we should trash the existing Kindle connecter, USB micro, because, gasp, some cables transfer data and some don't.

Perhaps the Luddites would be happier is we went back to USB A.