Amazon's own ebook format

[Josieb1]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

You are throwing around technical terms without understanding them or the concepts they represent.

There is so much wrong in your comment (& previous comments) that it would take far too long to correct your errors. I'd just like to state, for the record, my opinion that you have almost everything wrong, in case my silence might seem to be agreement.

Whilst I don't understand anything in this thread, I'm only reading it for curiosity, this statement is priceless. I have Sirmaru on permanent ignore

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by jgsmith

I thought that KF8 == AZW3 (can you tell I'm in IT?) and that converting from KF8/AZW3 to ePub was not so much a conversion as an unpack that removed an Amazon wrapper. Is this wrong?

Both contain the same resources, but packaged differently. KF8 is a wrapper the same way epub+zip is a wrapper.

S it DOES unpack the book from an Amazon wrapper -- but it must then rewrap it in the epub wrapper (which is zip, of course).

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by jgsmith

I thought that KF8 == AZW3 (can you tell I'm in IT?) and that converting from KF8/AZW3 to ePub was not so much a conversion as an unpack that removed an Amazon wrapper. Is this wrong?

KF8 and AZW3 are indeed different names for the same format. KF8 (Kindle Format 8) is what Amazon calls it, AZW3 is the file name extension Amazon sometimes gives to books in KF8.

However, KF8 is not just a different way to package an ePub from a KF8 file. The specifications for what is valid HTML and CSS is different (similar, but different) for KF8 and ePub.

KindleUnpack can create something that looks like an ePub, but it still has the HTML and CSS appropriate for KF8, not ePub. It might or might not be valid for an ePub. And the ePub structure has been created by KindleUnpack. It wasn't present in the KF8 file.

This is in stark contrast to Amazon's AZW4 format, which really is a PDF in a new wrapper, and from which a valid PDF can be extracted by KindleUnpack.

[DiapDealer]

A much better explanation than my feeble attempt. Thanks pdurrant!

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

A much better explanation than my feeble attempt. Thanks pdurrant!

<blush>

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

KindleUnpack can create something that looks like an ePub, but it still has the HTML and CSS appropriate for KF8, not ePub. It might or might not be valid for an ePub. And the ePub structure has been created by KindleUnpack. It wasn't present in the KF8 file.

Hm... so, it would not be guaranteed that a KindleUnpack "EPUB" would actually work well in an EPUB-reader? Would it be best to do an EPUB to EPUB conversion as a final step, or doesn't it make a difference?

AFAIK, Calibre always goes through Format -> HTML -> New Format chain. If I do a KindleUnpack + EPUB -> EPUB conversion, would that be different to just doing a KF8/AZW3 -> EPUB conversion?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Hm... so, it would not be guaranteed that a KindleUnpack "EPUB" would actually work well in an EPUB-reader? Would it be best to do an EPUB to EPUB conversion as a final step, or doesn't it make a difference?

AFAIK, Calibre always goes through Format -> HTML -> New Format chain. If I do a KindleUnpack + EPUB -> EPUB conversion, would that be different to just doing a KF8/AZW3 -> EPUB conversion?

I suspect the end result would be similar, but why not do the experiment and see?

[DiapDealer]

I has the knowledges, but lacks the lay-wordification skillz.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I has the knowledges, but lacks the lay-wordification skillz.

Just say "You need to reverse the polarity of the neutron flow". That can solve most problems.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

...why not do the experiment and see?

That's too obvious. There must be a more difficult way. I'm sure there's a mathematical formula for this, somewhere

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Just say "You need to reverse the polarity of the neutron flow". That can solve most problems.

I like it!

[barryem]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

The problem is that they are NOT YOUR eBooks. You only buy a license to READ that eBook.

When someone sells something and someone buys it they negotiate and agree to terms. In this case Amazon sets the terms. There's no opportunity for negotiation.

I'm all for supporting Amazon. I buy nearly all my ebooks from them and I'm glad to do it.

But ebook DRM imposes some restrictions that a lot of people don't agree with and since there's no penalty for stripping the DRM it's a trivial matter to avoid those restrictions.

The important restriction, to my mind, is that if someone decides to change the brand of reading device they use to, say, a Kobo, maybe a few years down the road when the Kindle has evolved into something they no longer like, they would no longer have access to their books. They bought the right to read them and they want to make sure they can read them. That seems entirely reasonable to me.

Do any of you remember about 15 years ago when Barnes and Noble got into ebook publishing for about 2 or 3 years and then decided to drop it. I think that was on the Palm platform if I remember correctly. With about a month's notice they ceased to allow downloads. If you changed devices you were out of luck. You lost the book. It happens. I think I lost a book or two but they were books I'd read and didn't plan to read again. But a lot of people lost a lot of books.

Yes it is illegal to protect yourself from this but there's virtually no chance of getting caught. There's no harm done to Amazon or to the publisher or author of the books.

Whether this is illegal or immoral are two entirely distinct issues.

It is illegal, according to the DMCA, to defeat encryption. It's a felony, in fact, with pretty severe penalties. But that means nothing if there's no possibility of enforcement.

If you believe that it's immoral to break a law then you can argue that it's immoral as well. But I'm sure you recognize that the vast majority of the people, those who drive 5 mph over the speed limit, for example, don't believe that.

I have some questions about this "right to read" idea, also. I just finished reading a book on my Kindle, "Peony" by Pearl S. Buck, that I read probably 50 years ago. I bought it in paperback. Admittedly I've long since lost that paperback so this is only half an example, but if I still had that paperback would that give me the right to download a pirate copy of the book to read? After all, I paid for the right to read it already.

I love to read and I want authors and publishers and Amazon to make a lot of money from my reading so they'll keep working hard to give me good books to read and good devices to read them on. That's a practical matter for me and that's sort of where it ends. The rest is all philosophical mumbo-jumbo.

Barry

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by barryem

The important restriction, to my mind, is that if someone decides to change the brand of reading device they use to, say, a Kobo, maybe a few years down the road when the Kindle has evolved into something they no longer like, they would no longer have access to their books. They bought the right to read them and they want to make sure they can read them. That seems entirely reasonable to me.

And that is the crux of the issue. Don't forget: according to sirmaru, that should never happen.

As he is an Amazon fanboy, more so than the most virulent of apple fanboys, he believes there is no justification for going against the sacred Word of Amazon. If we all just agreed with whatever Amazon says/does/offers, this world would be a much better place.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by barryem

Do any of you remember about 15 years ago when Barnes and Noble got into ebook publishing for about 2 or 3 years and then decided to drop it. I think that was on the Palm platform if I remember correctly. With about a month's notice they ceased to allow downloads. If you changed devices you were out of luck. You lost the book. It happens. I think I lost a book or two but they were books I'd read and didn't plan to read again. But a lot of people lost a lot of books.

I remember when they sold ebooks the first time, they stopped in September 2003. Amazon sold ebooks before the Kindle came into being (from 2001-2006) too and folks lost access to those books as well.

[sirmaru]

The real question is, if one buys a print book, does one have the right to make 2 backup copies on the new high speed, low cost laser printers we now have available? One could even use a utility and make a PDF file of the print book. SnagIt is one such utility.

The legal right to read the print book is only on the specific copy we purchased.

Because we have the power to make copies of print books, should we actually do it?

On another thread in this forum with a poll it appears almost everyone here does strip DRM from their eBooks. I have lots of old eBook files for the Sony and Adobe. I cannot read them on my Kindles.

I went to the Apprentice Alf site and read of how easy it is to download their tools and plug them into Calibre. The question for me is should I now release all those files to my Kindles?

It should be noted that Calibre, itself, has decided NOT to produce their own DRM removal tools but will accept the Alf plugin. Why did they make that choice?

So far I am choosing not to do this but others must make their own choice. If stripping of DRM led to sharing of those eBooks, then the economic model for writing and publishing books would collapse. Remember, once DRM is stripped, the next act without any real consequences would be sharing with friends and family.

This problem now exists in eBooks, songs and videos. Technology has swept past the rights of originators of those products.