WSJ: Investors Are Freaking Out About Barnes & Noble

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by markbot

Old people read a lot more than young people. Old people have a hard time buying items online. The bricks and mortar business still has some life, but a business plan based around old, dying people who are not savvy enough to realize the prices are terrible is not so great.

I don't believe this for a second.

[astrodad]

Originally Posted by markbot

Old people read a lot more than young people. Old people have a hard time buying items online. The bricks and mortar business still has some life, but a business plan based around old, dying people who are not savvy enough to realize the prices are terrible is not so great.

This has to be the stupidest thing I've ever read on MR.

My sixty year old aunt has an iPad, an iPhone, and a kindle and she's perfectly comfortable with using the internet and her devices to make purchases.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by SeaKing

As an aside, the small book sellers are now Walmart, Target, my local CVS, my local Inglis grocery store. There is no way that B&N can downsize quickly enough with all their obligations to compete with those stores.

One last question. What does the last big predator fish in the fish tank eat?

Good point.
The dept store/pharmacy/supermarket book depts *are* Kiosk businesses; but instead of free-standing in malls, they are based inside the multipurpose business. That sell commodities rather than specialty goods.

Hmm, that needs some thinking on.
"Bestsellers" are supposed to be traffic draws but if they're available everywhere doesn't each title become a commodity unto itself? If you're going to buy the newest Patterson book, it doesn't matter much *where* you get it; you get it the first place you find it at a good-enough price. That is commodity-like...
Something to chew on for later.

As to the predator thing: markets aren't neatly bounded like fish tanks. They overlap and overflow, they grow and shrink... They change.
When a "predator" outgrows its environment or its environment shrinks, it can and should look for new hunting grounds. Sometimes it even means abandoning its original niche instead of expanding it.
Survival comes first, second, and last.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Yikes, the day I can only get paper books at the Wal-Mart is the day literature dies.

In regards to old people, while some are technologically saavy you have my parents who are scairt of electricity. The effort involved in trying to help them get their photos off their camera to send to someone is unbelievable.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

In regards to old people, while some are technologically saavy you have my parents who are scairt of electricity. The effort involved in trying to help them get their photos off their camera to send to someone is unbelievable.

Some younger people seem to believe that computers were invented no more than 4-5 years ago, and thus that anyone older than them can't really comprehend them. But of course this is nonsense - while my 78-year-old mother isn't exactly "tech savvy," she used a computer at work 20 years ago and knows her way around a computer and the internet.

On the other hand, some of the 20-something contractors my gf hires for her rental business don't have e-mail addresses or own computers. They may or may not have high school diplomas.

But I suspect that education and occupation have more to do with computer literacy than age alone does.

[markbot]

Originally Posted by astrodad

This has to be the stupidest thing I've ever read on MR.

My sixty year old aunt has an iPad, an iPhone, and a kindle and she's perfectly comfortable with using the internet and her devices to make purchases.

I guess I was trying to be funny.

It was a broad generalization but the gist is that B&N stores are being supported by people who don't realize they can get the same book cheaper online....but of course, more and more people are realizing the pricing online is better so eventually B&N stores will decline to the point where their big box capacity no longer makes sense...as what happens with Borders.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

Some younger people seem to believe that computers were invented no more than 4-5 years ago, and thus that anyone older than them can't really comprehend them. But of course this is nonsense - while my 78-year-old mother isn't exactly "tech savvy," she used a computer at work 20 years ago and knows her way around a computer and the internet.

On the other hand, some of the 20-something contractors my gf hires for her rental business don't have e-mail addresses or own computers. They may or may not have high school diplomas.

But I suspect that education and occupation have more to do with computer literacy than age alone does.

Desire to learn is more important in my mind and as you said technological illiteracy runs through all generations. My parents were well educated in science to boot, yet they still fail to really learn much about computers. My dad had to write course material on computer, yet it's still pulling teeth to get him comfortable around the stuff.

I can't get my parents to shop on-line even when I show them real books I get shipped for free at a discount of usually 20%-30% over what you'd pay in the regular store. But bless them, because they are the reason the local Chapters still exists and I find use in the physical bookstore because it's still how I find a lot of new stuff.

[efindel]

Originally Posted by markbot

I guess I was trying to be funny.

It was a broad generalization but the gist is that B&N stores are being supported by people who don't realize they can get the same book cheaper online....but of course, more and more people are realizing the pricing online is better so eventually B&N stores will decline to the point where their big box capacity no longer makes sense...as what happens with Borders.

This sparks a thought here: often, you can't get the same book cheaper online... at least, not as an e-book. E-book readers are being supported by those who are used to buying books new.

My mom is reasonably tech-savvy, but she has no interest in buying an e-book reader right now. Why? Because, while she's a heavy reader, she gets her books from the used book store in her town. She's used to paying a dollar or less for a book. She's also used to being able to buy a bunch of books, read them, then bring them back and get some reasonable fraction of what she paid for them as credit toward getting different books.

She's retired now, and probably reading two books a week on average, judging by what I see on my visits home... but she's not going to spend $10 for an e-book of a bestseller, when she can get the physical book for less than that from the used bookstore.

I have to wonder how many other people like my mom are out there, who read voraciously, but don't buy their books new.

[gracie]

Old people read a lot more than young people. Old people have a hard time buying items online. The bricks and mortar business still has some life, but a business plan based around old, dying people who are not savvy enough to realize the prices are terrible is not so great.

I understand the tendency to jump on this statement with anecdotal statements about this or that friend or family member. I help at the local senior center in a town in Minnesota with a very high education rate (we've got so many retired teachers and professors that you can't swing a cat without clobbering a dozen). When I've done "tech" sessions on e-readers and tablets the room's been absolutely jammed. There's a LOT of interest.

But, at the same time, there are a lot of people that bring in their e-reader because they can't figure out how to download a book from the library to their Kindle, or can't understand the relationship between ADE and library books and how to get things onto their Nook...

So, yes, you may know a bunch of "someone's" that are 70+, tech-savvy, and happily downloading from the library, hitting the online bookstores, and skulking around the darknet, but from what I've seen, there's a LARGE group of "elderly" that read for pleasure, like the idea of e-readers where they can change font sizes, and would LIKE to do all these things, but have a very hard time going though the process of actually navigating the labyrinth.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by efindel

She's retired now, and probably reading two books a week on average, judging by what I see on my visits home... but she's not going to spend $10 for an e-book of a bestseller, when she can get the physical book for less than that from the used bookstore.

I have to wonder how many other people like my mom are out there, who read voraciously, but don't buy their books new.

Valid points.
But remember, there is more to ebooks than the annointed "bestsellers".

What many ebook readers do to get cheap reads is tap into the Public Domain, the promo freebies, and most important of all, is the $0.99 cheapies. And in the process, they discover there are good reads outside the BPH's domain.

When Amazon had their face-off with MacMillan two years ago, the BPHs constituted some 40% of Amazon book sales. That number is now lower and dropping. It will never be that high again. Not at Amazon, not anywhere.

Also, while some people who get ebook readers stop buying print, there is no law that says you have to. Used books are a fine way to supplement an ebook reader. Or vice-versa.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by efindel

This sparks a thought here: often, you can't get the same book cheaper online... at least, not as an e-book. E-book readers are being supported by those who are used to buying books new.

My mom is reasonably tech-savvy, but she has no interest in buying an e-book reader right now. Why? Because, while she's a heavy reader, she gets her books from the used book store in her town. She's used to paying a dollar or less for a book. She's also used to being able to buy a bunch of books, read them, then bring them back and get some reasonable fraction of what she paid for them as credit toward getting different books.

She's retired now, and probably reading two books a week on average, judging by what I see on my visits home... but she's not going to spend $10 for an e-book of a bestseller, when she can get the physical book for less than that from the used bookstore.

I have to wonder how many other people like my mom are out there, who read voraciously, but don't buy their books new.

But if she can borrow it from the library for FREE! (as I informed my eye doctor's assistant yesterday )

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Just ran into this, more detailed, look:

http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2012/...ate-nook/all/1

Nice article. Thanks for posting. Interesting how both Kindle Fire and Nook Tablet were the best selling product for each company.

A quote from the article:

This suggests that despite the charms of E Ink for long-form reading, there is a limit to how quickly that market can grow, at least domestically. That limit is not bound by price, but by interest. And right now, tablets and other color devices, which are also quickly dropping in price, are attracting the most interest.

If the US market peaked already, that will drive down hardware prices to crazy levels.

[elemenoP]

Well I just now went to B&N and spent $8 on a greeting card and a mad-lib. I even paid with cash so B&N wouldn't have to eat the credit card fees.

I think we can all breathe easy for another day. Or I can, at least.

eP

[MovieBird]

I was seriously considering moving to a Nook device, and consolidating most of my purchasing to Barnes & Noble. I was even going to buy one for my younger sibling. This news has me waiting to see what happens.

The Barnes & Noble wishlist is a PITA to operate, and I have no wish to lock* purchases into that ecosystem when it's not rock-solid certain what's going to happen.

This uncertainty is not helpful for Barnes & Noble where consumers like me are concerned.

*Yes I can deDRM my files. I just don't want to have to check all the time if a book has been updated/typos fixed and re-deDRM.

EDIT: I very much like the Amazon ecosystem. But I can't stand the tower of eBabel with regard to their Kindle formats. If every book went to a strict definition of KF8, then I would consider a Kindle.

[abookreader]

Originally Posted by markbot

Old people read a lot more than young people. Old people have a hard time buying items online. The bricks and mortar business still has some life, but a business plan based around old, dying people who are not savvy enough to realize the prices are terrible is not so great.

(sorry if I offended anyone...I was trying to be funny...)

Well I do somewhat get the point you are trying to make here. The problem is that it is about 20 years outdated. In the 1990's technology was thought to be and marketed to primarily 18 to 36 year old males. Not only age-ist, sexist to boot.

But today when the business world speaks of "old people" they are generally referring to the Baby Boomers and they are a huge marketing demographic.

This is the generation thatinvented modern technology and by far most of them not only use it quite adequately, they love exploring it.