Beware of Greeks Bearing Gifts: Let's talk about The Iliad

[Nyssa]

Originally Posted by HarryT

There's a Greek cultural concept that you need to be aware of when reading the Iliad (and the Odyssey) since, without it, the whole thing won't make sense, and that's a concept called "kleos", which is often translated as "glory", but it's a lot more than that.

"Kleos" is the whole point of a Homeric warrior's existence. It could be translated as "street cred" in the modern vernacular; it's what other people think about you. The key thing about it is that it's a zero-sum game; there's only a certain amount of kleos around, and the only way to increase your kleos is to take it from someone else.

The reason that Achilles removes himself from battle in book 1 is that his kleos has been diminished by having his captive taken from him; he's been "disrespected", and that makes it impossible for him to carry on fighting alongside the people who have insulted him in that way. He is acting in the only way possible for him to act in that situation, other than by killing the man who's insulted him, and he can't do that because it would make the entire (fragile) Greek alliance fall apart.

Yes. I understood all of that very clearly. What I'm not sure about are the rights/privileges/meanings of those with "god" statuses. I'll need to go into more detail when I get home this evening.

My biggest question is, why is Achilles "just" a semi-god if his father is Jove and his mother is the daughter of a god?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Nyssa

My biggest question is, why is Achilles "just" a semi-god if his father is Jove and his mother is the daughter of a god?

Achilles isn't a god - his father was king Pelius, and his mother was a nymph called Thetis. Nymphs are supernatural beings, but certainly not gods. Achilles is very human, and (in the Iliad, at least) is very capable of being killed like anyone else. His mum's "supernatural" status allows her to appeal to the gods for help for her son, as we'll see later in the story, but Achilles is very much a man, not a god. He's a hero, of course, but still a man.

EDIT: Perhaps you're thinking of the famous "Achilles heel", in which Achilles was made invulnerable by Thetis dipping him in the river Styx, apart from his heel, which she held him by? This story dates from from another epic poem called the "Achilleid", written in the 1st century AD (ie, about 900 years after the Iliad). There's no suggestion of him being invulnerable in the Iliad and, indeed, as we'll see, Thetis tells Achilles that if he decides to go off to war he will die in that war (which he does, although that story isn't told in the Iliad).

[issybird]

One reason The Iliad is a living story to us now is that the people are real according to our sense of how they think and behave. We recognize the story Homer is telling about warrior honor, but we also see the pettiness and jealousy that coexist with that.

Similarly, I see two stories regarding women. They're chattel, but they're also the cause of so much of the action. It's an issue regarding women that kicks off the story, it's Thetis who moves Zeus, and let's not forget that the abduction of Helen (through the agency of Venus) started the war.

[Nyssa]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Achilles isn't a god - his father was king Pelius, and his mother was a nymph called Thetis. Nymphs are supernatural beings, but certainly not gods. Achilles is very human, and (in the Iliad, at least) is very capable of being killed like anyone else. His mum's "supernatural" status allows her to appeal to the gods for help for her son, as we'll see later in the story, but Achilles is very much a man, not a god. He's a hero, of course, but still a man.

Ok, that helps things make more sense to me, now. Thank you. Is that why they keep referring to Achilles having a "shortened life-span"?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Nyssa

Ok, that helps things make more sense to me, now. Thank you. Is that why they keep referring to Achilles having a "shortened life-span"?

Achilles knows that he's going to die in the war; his mother made a prophesy that if he chose to go off to war, he would die.

[issybird]

According to myth, Thetis tried to make Achilles immortal by dipping him as an infant into the River Styx; however, he was vulnerable where she held him, by the heel.

[HomeInMyShoes]

^That's the story I remember.

Reading the discussion makes me almost want to pick up the Illiad. It's been on my potential reading list for some time, but there's just so much other stuff to read.

[Nyssa]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Achilles knows that he's going to die in the war; his mother made a prophesy that if he chose to go off to war, he would die.

Ah. Okay. I think I'm caught up now. Thank you.

Originally Posted by issybird

According to myth, Thetis tried to make Achilles immortal by dipping him as an infant into the River Styx; however, he was vulnerable where she held him, by the heel.

I remembered the vulnerability, but not the reason. Thanks.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by issybird

According to myth, Thetis tried to make Achilles immortal by dipping him as an infant into the River Styx; however, he was vulnerable where she held him, by the heel.

Yes, but as I said in an earlier post, that story originates in the 1st century AD poem, the "Achilleid", written by the Roman poet Publius Papinius Statius. There's no trace of any earlier source for the story. The "Homeric" Achilles certainly isn't invulnerable.

[issybird]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

^That's the story I remember.

Reading the discussion makes me almost want to pick up the Illiad. It's been on my potential reading list for some time, but there's just so much other stuff to read.

We're taking it slow, in part for that reason. Everyone seems to be juggling a lot of books. Why not join in?

Later on, I'll ask people about the pace and if it needs to be tweaked.

[issybird]

I know Achilles gets wounded later in the book. Perhaps his death from a wound to his heel gave rise to the myth?

[HarryT]

Unfortunately the epic which tells of the death of Achilles, called the "Aethiopis", has been lost. All we know about it are general descriptions from much later authors. We know that Achilles was killed by an arrow fired by Paris, the arrow being guided by Apollo. Paintings on Greek vases showing the death of Achilles just show him being killed by an arrow (or arrows) in the "conventional" manner (eg, through the heart); there's really no suggestion of the "heel" story prior to Statius.

[Billi]

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

I take it you have never read the Book of Numbers in the Bible then?

You're correct!

Coming back to the Iliad, it may be that the German translation is not the best one. I had some kind of a struggle with the ship-free parts, too. But the interesting discussion here makes that I will continue to read it.

[Namekuseijin]

Wow, I'm in for this challenge! Book I, here I come!

From reading all of the discussion so far, gotta agree there's a consortium of authors behind Harry, no single man should be so erudite. Perhaps some heir to Sir Francis Bacon, Kevin Bacon, and some of his Hollywood associates?

I've got Pope here. It's rhymed and sweet and tells precisely the same story, so I'm in. Not Homer, but I still pretend to pull a Harry some day to read real Homer. I'm learning French just to read 19th French poetry...

[Nyssa]

Originally Posted by Billi

Coming back to the Iliad, it may be that the German translation is not the best one. I had some kind of a struggle with the ship-free parts, too. But the interesting discussion here makes that I will continue to read it.

Again, I agree. I will be taking my time, though and will not worry as much about reading a certain number of chapters by a certain date. This first time frame wasn't bad (we had 1 week to read approx. 100 pages), I just wasn't prepared. I originally thought we were not going to start reading until today, and I had other books on my plate, and the wrong frame of mind where The Iliad was concerned.