New writer needs help on Fantasy novel (blacksmithing)

[michaelryannh]

Originally Posted by Andanzas

If this is the beginning of a chapter, I would switch the order of the first two sentences:



I think in fiction you are better off starting with concrete and clear facts rather than with general, abstract ideas.

It is not the beginning of a chapter, It is moreso in the middle.

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Ummm.... And what has he been up to before 15-16? Apprenticeships usually started between 12-14, and as a blacksmith's son, he was probably helping out informally since he was 7 or 8.


The Book of Swords by Hank Reinhardt will probably give you lots of good details about swords, by someone who's actually made swords.



It's a fascinating book, full of interesting info about swords and sword making.

I thought about picking that book up, but didn't think it would have anything to do with the process of actually making the swords.

As far as the age goes, Can we not leave this to the reader's imagination? I did not specify an age in my chapter to when he first started working with his father.

Originally Posted by HarryT

I have real issues with this:



A blacksmith (or a swordsmith) usually worked alone, or at most with an apprentice or journeyman: there were not "many specialists" involved in his work.

Also the phrase "but a simple blade as this could be done by one with dedication." makes no sense. Perhaps you meant "but a blade as simple as this", or "but a simple blade such as this"?

My intention was meant to be the latter of your comment.

And I will change that first sentence. Just wanted to elaborate on the fact that it would not be an easy job for him.

Originally Posted by kacir

One more thing ...
If the blacksmith wanted to make a sword really, really special - in magical sense of the word - he would use a bit of "fallen star" - meteorite iron as [a small] part of the material.

Sir Terry Pratchett (yes, that famous fantasy(*) author) has made himself a sword after he was knighted. Completely from scratch. He got help from a very knowledgeable friend and started by *personally* mining iron ore. He also obtained a little piece of iron meteorite and worked it onto steel, so his sword would acquire "magical properties".

You can look up his personal account.

Unfortunately, due to very weird British law about edged weapons he is not allowed to show us his DIY sword and he even has to deny the possession of such sword, otherwise he could be accused of breaking the law. Ain't that stupid? A person knighted by Queen isn't allowed to keep his ceremonial sword?


Now, this brings us to another question.
Is a mere non-noble-born villager allowed to own a sword in your world? I do not think so ;-)


(*) or whatever you wish to call his Discworld series.

michaelryannh, show us your reworked chapter after you change it using all the gathered info - just to make sure you have all details right ;-)
Some of us - yours truly included - have had to to exam[s] from metallurgy at university.

The sword is not made for him, He is a blacksmith making the sword for a traveler, who is obviously a noble man, *even though I did not state it*, The traveler has extravagant robes, and drops gold without even thinking about how much he is spending. Obviously, he would be allowed to carry a sword around. Nobody would question him. (Not to mention, the world is in a state of peril. The reason he needs the sword is the worry of 'bandits' on the highway he is about to travel on)

[Keryl Raist]

The butcher comment was meant humorously, though it probably could be the start of a real novel.

It's not like it's that far off from a logical potential beginning for a tale, and at least our meat cleaving kid would have a clue as to how to use a knife.

[amo]

He squeezed on the bellows to force air into the forge, raising the heat of the coals.

Bellows are pumped (repeatedly squeezed), not just squeezed once. Also, you wouldn't squeeze "on" the bellows, you'd just squeeze them.

[amo]

BTW, Michael, your profile doesn't say where you live - but if you're in North America, or possibly Australia/NZ, some of those medieval-type trades were practised by the pioneers as recently as a hundred years ago. I've seen blacksmithing demos at several outdoor museum sites, old Trading Forts etc. If you're in Europe, of course, there are museums all over the place that would have info on that, and I imagine the same would go for Asia. And not just blacksmithing- carpentry, stone masonry, spinning, weaving, cooking (over open fires), farming techniques, etc etc.

[michaelryannh]

I live on the east coast of North America in the United States.

And thank you for the hint about the bellows

[SF&F Reader]

Sword and knife making has been a passion of mine since I was young. I've read much literature on the subject and have made a few knives but I haven't tackled a large project like a sword yet. I have dabbled in blacksmithing, including building my own Lively style forge, although a hole in the ground works pretty well too.

Charcoal is definitely the fuel of choice. Coal was used more during the industrial revolution as supply increased and trees (to make charcoal) became scarce. But coal burns dirty and really isn't ideal for forging blades. There is a legend that in some isolated areas of Eastern Europe the smiths were able to use unseasoned wood from a specific tree, but I digress.

I have made charcoal. It is fairly labour intensive, and you lose a lot in the process. Here's a link showing how they used to make it (and another without pictures).

At any rate, my one admonition would be to remember that forging or 'blacksmithing' is only one step in the process of making a sword. After that comes the white work or 'whitesmithing' which is the removal of the black forge scale (like this) as well as the further shaping and refinement of the blade which is done with files, chisels, drawknives, and coarse stones. At this point, before the final polish, heat treatment should occur. This involves heating to the critical (or non-magnetic) point, quenching, and then tempering which can be done in several cycles. It is quite an involved process that medieval smiths probably did not fully grasp as is attested by the large number of improperly treated swords (and many had no heat treatment at all!). But I digress again. Tempering will colour the blade (a straw yellow is the preferred colour for the edge) so more white work is required including polishing and putting a sharp edge on the sword. This white work, especially the polishing, could take weeks just by itself.

A huge pet peeve of mine is when sword making is depicted in movies as follows: heat the metal to red, pound on it a bit, quench, and voilà - a perectly polished blade emerges from the water

I also would not disregard the idea of specialists. There could be the master smith (who directs the hammering), the apprentices who do the actual hammering (usually two), the filer, the polisher, the hilt maker, and the scabbard maker (not to mention the jewel setter if the client was rich). There is certainly precedent for this. I don't know where the idea of a lone swordsmith came from. In fact, most local smiths, who would not have the skill or time to make a sword, would buy ready made blades (Germany and Spain were two legendary sources of blades) and simply fit a guard, handle and pommel on as desired by the customer. Scabbards would have to be bought elsewhere.

There is so much I could say on the subject and what I have said is probably over-simplified. I hope at the least that I have not confused the matter.

[ScalyFreak]

Originally Posted by SF&F Reader

There is so much I could say on the subject and what I have said is probably over-simplified. I hope at the least that I have not confused the matter.

What you have done, is to adequately explain why a well-made sword was far, far, too expensive for just anyone to have.

[kacir]

Originally Posted by SF&F Reader

Sword and knife making has been a passion of mine since I was young.

Very nicely said. You brought up points that none of us thought to mention

Originally Posted by SF&F Reader

There could be the master smith (who directs the hammering), the apprentices who do the actual hammering (usually two),

This is often done the way that master smith has a small hammer (relatively speaking, of course) and where he hits two apprentices have to hit with much bigger hammers. The most difficult part for me (when learning practical blacksmithing) was, that when working as an apprentice or blacksmith assistant you have to continue hammering the same spot even when master smith stops hitting the spot. Master smith signals his apprentices that they have to stop by "ringing the anvil" - hitting it in a peculiar way so that his hammer goes up and down rapidly. When he wants you to start hitting different spot he would hit it with hammer. That can be quite difficult and requires expert timing so he doesn't collide with helpers hammer.


Also, one little observation for the sake of the completeness of this thread.
When people ran out of trees for making charcoal (gross oversimplification), and when it became clear that iron production can't be sustained by wood based charcoal, use of coke has been invented in 17th century. Of course, Chinese have been doing that for 800 years by then ;-)

Coke is produced in a very similar process as charcoal - by baking coal (instead of wood) in air-less oven.