"Why wired.com is wrong about ebooks"

[Prestidigitweeze]

Originally Posted by AGB

You countered my argument by opening with "I changed my post". It seems the only reason you made that statement and changed your post was because you changed your mind and wanted me to somehow make a concession.

I answered, not countered, your comment by stating I'd already considered that the word hobby could have negative connotations. I mentioned changing the word because (1) it made dwelling on the word irrelevant and (2) I meant no ill will in choosing a more appropriate word to state an inoffensive idea.

I see digressions like this one as dreary obligations, not contests. The moment you began making accusations, the conversation was no longer fun. As long as you continue to make them, no one wins.

You did change your mind, and thus the post.

First of all, it would be ridiculous for anyone to lie about something that inconsequential. Second, calling another member on mobileread a liar -- repeatedly -- is incredibly over-the-top. Third, you have no idea or way of determining how long I had a window open or who was looking at what version of the thread onscreen. Screens need refreshing, and that doesn't happen as long as the user is writing or reading.

In a place like this, people have to operate in good faith.

[i]And you did so, after I had responded and made a point out of your change of heart.

(1) I had no change of heart. I changed a word, as I do multiple times in virtually every post I write, to make the language tighter and less prone to misinterpretation. It wouldn't matter who posted afterward, but if I had changed a word at someone else's prompting, I'd give them credit. This was not one of those times.

(2) Moblieread records multiple edits, not simply the last one. You can't go by the last date recorded to track every edit because it's not only unfair but can be easily disproved as in this case.

(3) Suspicions aren't justifiable conclusions. If you think so little of a stranger that you can convince yourself they're intentionally being snobs about your profession, and that they would be willing to lie about inconsequential wording, then I'm not sure what to say except that you're not being a gentleman. This is a public forum where politeness is expected and stalking is discouraged.

However, it's funny how you first claim that "professionals need to take notes in the books"

What's not funny is that you constantly put your own words in quotes and attribute them to me. Nowhere on this thread have I said "professionals need to take notes in the books." I made the point that people who use eReaders -- in this case, college students and editors -- need a reliable way to preserve the notes they make on their eReaders. It isn't simply a question of backing up the notes. People also need to be able to back up their notes' positions on the page.

No reason the plain text option should disappear. If you like to keep your notes as a separate text file, there's no reason to disable such an easy-to-implement option. But people who depend on the context of their notes within the books they're studying require another sort of backup.

It isn't a question of who's professional and who isn't. It's a question of how not having that feature will affect users' lives.

We've already seen a freshman college student on Mobileread lose all her notes before finals when her Reader crashed. Lessening the likelihood of that happening is what's important. Compared to that dire situation, my reading a novel is personal -- hence the original use of the word hobbyist -- but that doesn't make it trivial. It simply means I'm not looking at a failing grade or destroyed work project with a deadline if I lose my notes.

I don't want to see another young college student lose their work like the woman who posted. She was the person I had in mind when I wrote my first post.

when I mention I too am a professional, albeit it in a rather different field than you, then you attack that as if you know more about journalism than I do, and you top it off, by pretending I am somehow being dishonest and misrepresenting my vocation.

(1) Actually, I said that you might be a fine journalist for all I know but that your best side was not on display in this thread.

(2) I also said that the two options one has when looking at your personal attacks against me on this thread are that you've either misrepresented yourself as a journalist (since working journalists know better than to report unattributed suppositions as fact) or you've simply forgotten -- for whatever reason -- to remember to apply your standards to this conversation. My exact words: "Out of respect, I'll assume you've simply forgotten."

The "forum specific"? Are you freaking kidding me? This is in the news section. It's a thread about note taking with digital aids.

Forum-specific not because this is a news forum but because this is an internet forum, complete with moderators and an FAQ that asks us to avoid public skirmishes like this one, which hinge upon (and mark the correct use of ad hominem, since you've been using it haphazardly): An attempt to persuade through an appeal to the emotions by attributing motives and sentiments to others which they have not revealed and may in fact not possess.

True, you didn't ask explicitly, but since it was a rather prominent part of your reply to my counter, it seems it was prudent for you to make it very clear that you had changed your post.

For the record, that was your baffling response to this point of mine, which you quoted: "No one asked you to 'edit your post.'"

It was not "prudent" to mention the change because I wasn't and am not aware of having done anything wrong.

It is considerate to point out the change as an example of my intentions in writing that post. I "humbly suggested" (my words) that you reconsider "your attacks" because you'd misconstrued my intentions. What you do with your previous posts after reconsidering is up to you. No one is trying to arm-wrestle you into changing your words.

You did. You explicitly went back to rephrase it. You only did so because you changed your mind of what to write. If not, you would have merely corrected typos or whatever.

More ad hominem barking about motives and acts you have no way of ascertaining. You can ask whether what I'm doing is what you suspect, but, logically, you can't conclude that it is what you suspect without my having stated as much.

And you made it a point to tell me, rather than address what I said.

I told you I had addressed the possibility of negative interpretations before you chose to express your own.

No, I just really dislike when people try to pretend that their personal preferences is how everyone - not only in their field, but in every field that even has a hint of the same - is working and doing things, and how this way is the only way and the right way. "Because, you know, I'm a professional, and therefore my personal preferences applies to any professionals"

You're investing my words with ideas they do not express and me with sentiments I do not possess.

The college student who posted in the Sony Reader forums was the person I was thinking of -- her situation and the possibility she might fail her exams because her notes were lost.

I added manuscript editors in an attempt to be inclusive. Your idea of some elite hierarchy of professionals hadn't occurred to me.

That's what I mean when I say this is a debate no one can win. To argue well, you have to listen. If you refuse to listen, the debate stagnates and everyone's stuck waiting to disembark the Mobius strip of your obstinacy.

I'm sorry, but you accusing me of ad hominems is ridiculous given what you have just managed.

Then you need to look up the expression again. I'm using it in the classic sense, whereas you, my friend, are simply using it.

The most speculative thing I've said is that the tone of your own posts has been far more accusatory than is warranted, which leads me to think you might be carrying baggage of some kind. I can't prove you're carrying it, and I don't know what the baggage might be, but the intensity of your reactions suggests something is off and it isn't my problem.

Again: I'm not insisting that that's true. I'm saying your accusations are unwarranted and inappropriate.

Secondly, where am I substituting words? Oh, you mean I paraphrased a tiny bit of what you said, and made it clear I was paraphrasing?

To paraphrase is to put what someone else has said in your own words. What you did was to write down perceived sentiments and motives, enclose them in quotes, and attribute them to someone else. That isn't a paraphrase.

No, I am paraphrasing because the same quote again and again from you all the while you trying to run from it, would be boring.

You have no such quote because it does not exist, nor am I "running from" a quote that does not exist. In fact, I have addressed your charge specifically and clearly.

You have time and time again refused to see any positive side to digital. You first tried to make an appeal to authority, by claiming "professionals", people who relied on note taking and notes, needed to have them on paper.

You seem to be saying I've committed the logical fallacy of having argued by authority. But for me to have done that, I'd have to mention myself and make my experience sole reason for the asinine thesis you're attributing to me: "As a 'professional,' I can assert that [insert the ludicrous idea that digital notes are inherently unprofessional]."

The first problem with your charge is that I never claimed authority.

Second, I never suggested that people needed to have notes on paper. My entire point was that Sony should implement a backup system that allows people to restore their onscreen notes in a way that retains their positions onscreen, which can't be done if the backup files are plain text. Even if the college student had backed up her notes, she would not be able to see the passages beside which she'd written them. Plain text notes can be useful, but sometimes seeing them in the context of the book itself is crucial.

Quite different from what you have said through here. At least you have now moderated it.

It is exactly what I said before and exactly what I'm continuing to say. If you had had any effect on what I'm saying, I'd give you credit. But rudely misinterpreting someone else and refusing to be reasonable doesn't deserve credit. The most it might deserve is patience.

Yet that was not your argument. Your argument was that having a device for notes were bad. The main argument was that it could crash

The fact you've misunderstood my simplest and least-controversial point suggests this is a pointless discussion. That isn't even close to what I said. Anyone on this thread can go back, read my first post, and explain this to you: my argument was that Sony should implement a backup system for notes that restores their position onscreen because readers crash, which puts students and editors in potentially hellish situations.

No it merely means I get annoyed when exposed to someone trying to declare his "professional" is the way as you did from the get-go. . . . Although you changed your mind and changed your post, you pretty much degraded it yourself by opening the ball with the argument that you were a professional, and that we professionals needed to make notes in the books, and that "hobbyists" didn't have such needs.

Addressed and answered repeatedly. This is the same incorrect series of statements you've been asserting for three posts. This is like being stuck in a revolving door at the DMV.

The reason is that I actually read what people write instead of trying to play the persecution (or victim) card, when someone disagrees with me. You know, like you have done, while changing what you "meant" numerous times in this discussion.

It is a mistake to confuse belligerence for strength.

You do? I guess you also doubt that an novel author's forum posts should be full fledged books, or that a tv presenter should talk that way going about his daily non-work business.

What?

I am taking full responsibility for my emotions and "mindset".

If you were taking any responsibility for your emotions at all, or possessed any degree of self-awareness, you would not be comfortable projecting your ideas of elitism and caginess onto hapless strangers. You might have realized, for example, that English, like any other language, has its own idiosyncrasies of usage, and that context can be difficult to gauge for a non-native speaker. You might have thought, just for a moment, about your sense of context and possible flaws in your comprehension.

If a writer whose first language is English would go over their own words painstakingly to reflect on their own usage and to be considerate of others, then perhaps you, as a non-native writer, should think about that, too. Perhaps you should stop to consider the other people on this thread -- people who are trying to have a conversation you keep interrupting for selfish and irrelevant reasons. Perhaps you should stop fixating on me as some imaginary spokesperson for elitism and think soberly about details and inflections you might have missed.

This isn't something that you alone should do. It's something that everyone should do -- partly to avoid being obnoxious and partly to avoid looking ridiculous.

This conversation just needs to end now that you have conceded. . . . . Keep it up.

The conversation involves other people besides you and me. This little digression should have ended long ago for other people's sake.

This is a conference call, AGB. It's a group conversation. We've all got phones to our ears, but no one is able to talk about the subject we've agreed to discuss. Why? Because you, AGB, happen to have a stick up your argumentative behind.

The irony is that it isn't even my stick. It's your stick, AGB. You own it, you're the one who put it there and you're the one who refuses to take it out.

For the sake of everyone else who's trying to talk, do us a favor and take it out.

[AGB]

Presti,

The discussion ended for me with my last post. It ended because it was clear that not only had you admitted that your first and second post wasn't actually what you meant (i.e. you changed the core argument at that point), but that it was pointless for me to continue discussing with someone who changes their mind as the wind blows and plays a victim while offering ad hominems ad libitum.

[Prestidigitweeze]

Originally Posted by AGB

The discussion ended for me with my last post. It ended because it was clear that not only had you admitted that your first and second post wasn't actually what you meant (i.e. you changed the core argument at that point)

I changed nothing, AGB, and I've always said what I meant. All that changed was the flicker of the nightlight in the basement of your incomprehension.

This is my language, ABG. If you want others to respect your history as a journalist, then have respect for mine as a person who writes and revises endlessly as a tribute to the language he loves.

[ST-One]

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

I changed nothing, AGB. All that changed was the flicker of the weakest nightlight in the basement of your incomprehension.

This is my language, ABG. If you want others to respect your history as a journalist, then have respect for mine as a person who writes and revises endlessly as a tribute to the language he loves. I know what I write and say and my meaning is clear. My word as a person hasn't wavered.

English is the language I used when I first spoke my own name. I used it when I first said hello to my baby nephew and goodbye to the mother I buried. I use it to speak to the soul of the woman I loved, who vanished into air, leaving a two-year-old son behind, and has been missing for the past ten years. It is the language I use to honor these people each night.

I used it last winter when a professor at Aristotle University asked about my poems because he was delivering a paper about them at a symposium in Greece. I used it when I wrote critical essays published by Oxford University Press, University of Mississippi other academic presses. I used it while writing poetry that has gone through eighteen editions and been translated into several languages. I use it when I'm editing other people's books, but also when I'm writing a story for a local paper.

I'll use it when at last I face the day that will come for each of us: The day when I leave this world, and my last thoughts circle the world I love like Sirin and Alkonost.

That, too, will be in English. That, too, will be honest and clear.

^ That, too, is just another post giving evidence to the fact that you just love to read your own words.

[AGB]

I think I'll let the people reading your posts make that decision. To me it is obvious you said one thing, then changed your mind (and post) when countered, to finally arrive at the final opinion You did all this while simultanously playing a victim and more than implying that I was crap at my job and other such ad hominems.

Honest and clear is a joke. You first stated one thing, then changed it, then narrowed the scope on at least two fronts, all the while interspersing it with ad hominems and attemps to grant yourself victimhood.

Your posts reek of self importance. I don't care how many papers you have corrected, or that your first language is English, because that doesn't make the argument you made any more valid. If anything, it implies you ought to have been more specific when piecing together the argument.

You didn't even understand the sarcasm when I mentioned the tv presenter. It should have been an easy enough example to understand: You tried to argue that how I carried myself in this discussion would mean I was a lousy journalist. Thereby inferring that a journalist should act and write like he does professionally.

If we followed such an argument - not even to the extreme - you'd be arguing that tv-presenters should talk and behave as they do on the screen.
But as I said, it really shouldn't be hard to fathom for someone who toots his own horn as much as you do.

[Sil_liS]

@Prestidigitweeze
This argument between you and AGB is hilarious. But do you realize that you actually wrote a post that has close to 2000 words?

Anyway, the choice between taking digital notes or hand written ones is a matter of preference. It usually depends on how good your filing system is, whether you want to share them or not, whether you find it easier to have hand written notes or keyboard ones, and lets not forget, on how horrible your handwriting is.

[AGB]

Ouch! Horrible handwriting is what I do best!

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by AGB

Ouch! Horrible handwriting is what I do best!

I think of it as a defense mechanism. My writing is pretty horrible when I have to be fast about it, which happened in many classes that I was taking during my bachelor's degree, and it was stopping most colleagues (not all), from asking to borrow them.

[AGB]

Hehe, I like that rationale!

[Prestidigitweeze]

Originally Posted by AGB

To me it is obvious you said one thing, then changed your mind (and post) when countered.

It is obvious you have no idea what I said.

It is also obvious your comprehension is abysmal -- which would be fine if you weren't so belligerent that you bludgeon people with your ignorance no matter how often it becomes a hindrance.

It is also obvious that you have a grudge that precedes this thread.

That was not my doing and this is not the place for your grudges.

Anyone who reads the first few posts will see you went after me for reasons that have nothing to do with what I wrote, and that my polite responses were met with pointless truculence.

I'll let others decide as well -- people who are more interested in recognizing hateful words for what they are instead of counting words which are harmless.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

I'll let others decide as well -- people who are more interested in recognizing hateful words for what they are instead of counting words which are harmless.

I'm going to assume that this was directed at me.

I read your post which lasted forever, and I was just curious how long it was. And since this is digital, it was really easy to paste it in a word document and click word count.

[Prestidigitweeze]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

I'm going to assume that this was directed at me.

Your assumption is only partly correct. Yes, I noted your mention of word count. But I didn't take offense, nor was I addressing you.

I can't really blame you for using phrases like "lasted forever." You're right in the sense that I fell for bottomless accusations by writing even more bottomless clarifications. You don't think you'll get roped in and then you do.

Anyway, I'm not quite getting why backing up the position of notes on the pages of eBooks would be such a bad idea.

[hidari]

Looks like we have the beginning of a Monty Pythonesque.... thread... keep it up....I am enjoying this...

[Prestidigitweeze]

It's a lot like the sketch about the argument clinic, only I was actually looking for the men's room.

[AGB]

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

It is obvious you have no idea what I said.

It is also obvious your comprehension is abysmal -- which would be fine if you weren't so belligerent that you bludgeon people with your ignorance no matter how often it becomes a hindrance.

It is also obvious that you have a grudge that precedes this thread.

That was not my doing and this is not the place for your grudges.

Anyone who reads the first few posts will see you went after me for reasons that have nothing to do with what I wrote, and that my polite responses were met with pointless truculence.

I'll let others decide as well -- people who are more interested in recognizing hateful words for what they are instead of counting words which are harmless.

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

Your assumption is only partly correct. Yes, I noted your mention of word count. But I didn't take offense, nor was I addressing you.

I can't really blame you for using phrases like "lasted forever." You're right in the sense that I fell for bottomless accusations by writing even more bottomless clarifications. You don't think you'll get roped in and then you do.

Anyway, I'm not quite getting why backing up the position of notes on the pages of eBooks would be such a bad idea.

Wow, you continue to deny what you have said, all the while trying to grant yourself victimhood and continue the ignorant, unsubstantiated accusations of my lack of comprehension. I'll let the readers decide. If you haven't edited your posts for meaning, it should be obvious to anyone. Talk about a complete and utter lack of integrity and intellectual honesty.

Edit: I particularly like your pocket psychology: That I have a grudge that precedes this thread. That one made me laugh.

I have never seen your nick before this thread, so that would be quite hard. Go look at my posts, you will notice that there is no history whatsoever of us colliding . It seems you're of the school "If I can't make an argument, I'll attack and make something up that has no bearing on reality" Or in other words: "I have no clue what I'm saying so I resort to intellectual dishonesty".