Visual Content Editor for Sigil?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by DNSB

The only epub I've run into which was created using Kotobee did not use h1-h6 tags. The entire TOC was pretty much a manual creation which Kotobee evidently made fairly easy to create. I admit that while I was cleaning up the errors, I also added heading tags and titles which made it much easier for me to recreate the TOC when I was done.

Okay, well, that makes ABSOLUTELY no sense to me and more importantly, how the hell is that accessible? The Kotobee plain text TOC maker?

And why the hell would anyone want to do that manually? I feel like I've fallen down the proverbial rabbit hole.

Hitch

[un_pogaz]

Because is visual: You can move your HTML/Chapter by drag and drop, and you have instant results in front of your eyes.
Try it, my video was made too quickly to properly show its ease of use.

Sigil's solution is good, the best after thinking about it, but it is not the most obvious one.
In Sigil there are 2 solutions:
The "Automatic Generator", efficient, but which requires a rather prescient knowledge: tag <h1>, <h2>... separates the concept of HTML page from that of Chapter.
And the Editor that asks has created each entry manually.

We are all here more or less initiated to Sigil, but for the common mortel, no and it will be lost.
Why the ToC button doesn't allow me to edit the ToC and create something brand new? Why doesn't the Table of Content window of the UI allow me to edit it? Why the Edit ToC is ""hidden"" in the menu option? Why 2 solutions to do ToC?

For a professional, all of this is normal.
But for a neophyte who has only known WYSIWYG editors (Word, Libre Office), the Sigil interface is extremely verbose and complex.

Kotobee Author has chosen a WYSIWYG editor, so he has created editing solutions easy to use for a neophyte, even if it means twisting a little the real use of some elements.


We can debate that Sigil is not for neophytes, but in any case, we will ALWAYS come across people who, looking to improve their skills, will come from other software having made other strategic choices.
And these people will come with their experience, preference and expectation of what they think is better software.
And it's up to us "experts" to guide them so that they find a work experience as pleasant as before.

We're all lazy, and we don't like change, even when we want it.
In the case of hhtmp88 :
Kotobee had a system that automatically manages HTML pages and ToC at the same time.
He arrived on Sigil which manages its 2 aspects separately, and stranger still, there are 2 editing solutions and the dockable window for ToC is only a non-editable preview.

Why is my previous solution so unavailable? Why my previous solution wasn't the best? How to rework correctly with the new tools?

[Thasaidon]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I have tried more than once to throw dollar bills (so to speak) at Diap and Kevin and they have steadfastly refused. I keep hoping that they'll let me thank them in SOME fashion other than my slavish donation.
Hitch

I agree. I have the highest respect for the work done on Sigil by Diap and Kevin.

Even if Diap. does not always agree with my obviously correct views

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Okay, well, that makes ABSOLUTELY no sense to me and more importantly, how the hell is that accessible? The Kotobee plain text TOC maker?

And why the hell would anyone want to do that manually? I feel like I've fallen down the proverbial rabbit hole.

Hitch

An epub where every chapter header is an individual file all to itself. An epub where sections in a chapter are split into individual files. The only way to have the entire chapter as a single file is to only use 1 heading tag. I'm not sure but I suspect the TOC tool by default grabs the first text line to display as the chapter title. Perhaps it is supposed to make it easier to generate a TOC when you don't know how to properly use heading tags.

In the epub I got to work on, a chapter that should be one file ends up with in the example 4 files. I used ~~~~~~~~~~~ to mark the file chunks.

<h1>Chapter One</h1>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

<h2>Mechanist</h2>

text block
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

<h2>Faeland</h2>

text block
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

<h2>Mechanist</h2>

Text block

And yeah, seeing Chapter One on a page by itself and page breaks instead of a text or graphic section break is rather annoying.

I remember at one point calibre would do that on a conversion and I found that annoying as well.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Thasaidon

I agree. I have the highest respect for the work done on Sigil by Diap and Kevin.

Even if Diap. does not always agree with my obviously correct views

Well, hell, there's slavish devotion and then there's just being nutty. MWAHAHAHAH.

Hitch

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Thasaidon

I agree. I have the highest respect for the work done on Sigil by Diap and Kevin.

Even if Diap. does not always agree with my obviously correct views

Well, hell, there's slavish devotion and then there's just being nutty. MWAHAHAHAH.

@DNSB: yes, but...I mean, it's daft as hell, but surely there's something that the original requestor and some other KTB fans must LIKE about it. I'm just...I'm just trying to understand. I don't like it when I don't.

Usually...we get the usual "please make it more like Word" stuff. I get that. It's not my thought, but, at least I get why they want it. Given what Sigil can do, I don't understand WHAT the poster is asking for. See what I mean? And that stuff? Each heading, etc., in its own file? Phlllbbb. What does that add, other than a bunch of unnecessary (individual) files?

The only thing I can think is habituation. It's how he learned, so it's what he wants.

Hitch

[BrowncoatCat]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

It already exists. It's called PageEdit.

After taking years to finally rid Sigil of its problematic wysiwyg editing view, I can say with a great degree of certainty that there will never be a new wysisyg editing view added back into Sigil (as an integral feature) during the current maintainers' tenure. No matter how many voices are "raised."

PageEdit and Sigil's Open With feature already offers those who prefer a wysiwg editing environment a wide range of choices to meet their needs.

I'm sorry for ranting on my first post in this forum but:

I have used Sigil to convert three of my novel to eBooks. It was brilliant. Now I find its functionality has been reduced to that of a chocolate teatpot by removing PageEdit into a separate piece of software.

People in the real world who want to visually lay out a visual product like a book do not want to learn reams of complex coding. They just want to get the job done.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by BrowncoatCat

I'm sorry for ranting on my first post in this forum but:

I have used Sigil to convert three of my novel to eBooks. It was brilliant. Now I find its functionality has been reduced to that of a chocolate teatpot by removing PageEdit into a separate piece of software.

People in the real world who want to visually lay out a visual product like a book do not want to learn reams of complex coding. They just want to get the job done.

Well, then, you might consider trying Adobe's Dreamweaver product for visual HTML layout. Or you could pay $45 for Jutoh. There are certainly alternatives. Or simply use Open Office or pay for Atlantis Word Processor and export ePUBs thereto, all of which allow you to not look under the hood.

PageEdit wasn't made "into a separate piece of software." BookView--which is what you're referring to--literally couldn't be continued. For a sh**load of coding reasons. Couldn't be done.

There's no law saying you have to upgrade to a later version of Sigil. If the changeover from BookView to PageEdit is so problematic for you, simply install and use a much, much older version. Eventually, of course, ePUB standards will move along and you won't be able to keep using it, but you could always pay for Blue Griffon or one of those to get your "visual" editing.

Hitch

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by BrowncoatCat

People in the real world who want to visually lay out a visual product like a book do not want to learn reams of complex coding. They just want to get the job done.

Even if the end result causes issues due to the extremely poor code output? InDesign is bad enough but at least the code it outputs while convoluted works. Too many other WYSIWYG editors that claim to be epub editors output code that does not work when for example,uploading it to SmashWords or Amazon or even a simple pass through epubcheck. I shouldn't complain too much though -- cleaning the stables supports my hobbies.

For the most part, if you want visual layout, I's suggest using Microsoft Word or OpenOffice with styles, output a .docx file and use calibre to convert it to epub. If you use styles correctly, you can get a very clean epub file which needs minimal touchup. It does take some effort but once you have your styles set up, just re-use as needed.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by BrowncoatCat

People in the real world who want to visually lay out a visual product like a book do not want to learn reams of complex coding. They just want to get the job done.

Then they should get a new job. One they're better suited for. Preferably one that doesn't require them to fudge their way through making something that requires knowledge of coding to do it correctly.

Your "brilliant" version of Sigil that works perfectly for your needs still exists. Use it in good health, for as long as you like. There is no need for you to update beyond its superior experience.

Seriously ... why do people insist on pretending something has been taken away from them? Almost every version of Sigil ever released is still (and will be) available. Use the one that works for you and stop acting like someone shot your dog.

[KevinH]

Have you even bothered to set PageEdit as Sigil's preferred external xhtml editor in Sigil's Preferences and give it a try?

You can then open the opf in Sigil, and hit the External Editor icon and have the complete contents of the spine available to edit in PageEdit with a wysiwyg interface that is very very close to what BookView offered.

In fact, there is very little that the old BookView can do that can't be done in PageEdit and even some new things that can be done only in PageEdit.

And as others have pointed out, you can always just stay with the older Sigil releases that had BookView, as all releases are available on our github page.

But as DiapDealer said, BookView is never coming back as it allowed users to too easily create bad code that might be okay in html browsers, but that certainly is not okay in an epub that is going to be published.

With PageEdit, once you close, you return to Sigil where you have the chance to see any errors and fix them. But this typically requires some knowledge of xhtml and its rules.

KevinH

Originally Posted by BrowncoatCat

I'm sorry for ranting on my first post in this forum but:

I have used Sigil to convert three of my novel to eBooks. It was brilliant. Now I find its functionality has been reduced to that of a chocolate teatpot by removing PageEdit into a separate piece of software.

People in the real world who want to visually lay out a visual product like a book do not want to learn reams of complex coding. They just want to get the job done.

[un_pogaz]

Originally Posted by KevinH

You can then open the opf in Sigil, and hit the External Editor icon and have the complete contents of the spine available to edit in PageEdit with a wysiwyg interface that is very very close to what BookView offered.

It always comes down to this:
PageEdit/Sigil has powerful but not intuitive functionality (who would use an XHTML visual editor on an XML file containing no text?).

A problem with the WYSIWYG alternative is that none of them accept ePub as the main format. Possibly as a source file, but it is converted to another format.

And above all: None of them allow to alternate easily between code editing and WYSIWYG.
This was the great strength of Sigil "Book view".

The more I think about it, the more the synergy of PageEdit/Sigil is a bad idea.
The real problem isn't that you wanted to get away from a WYSIWYG editor, it's a choice, but that you're maintaining a weird crutch.
Merge them. Find a way to merge them and cohabitate them in the same software.


I thank you for the voluntary development of Sigil, but really, I find that you're blinded yourself any think posibility because "I don't want to think about it" and that your policy is "walk or die" on YOUR choices.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by BrowncoatCat

I'm sorry for ranting on my first post in this forum but:

I have used Sigil to convert three of my novel to eBooks. It was brilliant. Now I find its functionality has been reduced to that of a chocolate teatpot by removing PageEdit into a separate piece of software.

People in the real world who want to visually lay out a visual product like a book do not want to learn reams of complex coding. They just want to get the job done.

Coding your average novel into an ePub eBook is actually not complex. You don't need complicated layouts and complicated code to do what you wan to be done.

WYSIWYG editors for HTML code can produce some rather poor code. While you can use a WYSIWYG editor, you still have to validate the code and you are best to clean it up. It's actually more difficult to clean up the mess your WYSIWYG editor made.

Lean HTML/CSS and you'll find coding your eBook is not as hard as you think.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by un_pogaz

This was the great strength of Sigil "Book view".

What do you mean "was"?? For the 500th time: Book View is still available! Still there in all of its perfect glory. Use it. Love it. Have its children. Just shut up about it already. All the whingeing in the world isn't going make everyone else go back to using (or further developing) it.

[exaltedwombat]

Originally Posted by BrowncoatCat

I have used Sigil to convert three of my novel to eBooks. It was brilliant. Now I find its functionality has been reduced to that of a chocolate teatpot by removing PageEdit into a separate piece of software.

Not THAT separate. In fact, though the code is distinct from that of Sigil, functionally it's hardly separate at all. Particularly now installation alongside Sigil has been automated.

But do remember, there's no such thing as a WYSIWYG editor for EPUB. You get to see a preview of the layout on a device with a particular screen size, which obeys css instructions as expected, and when the user has decided not to over-rule them with his own preferences. None of which are a given!