valid code but too complicated for e-reader

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by GrannyGrump

Hitch said


Well, that is mightily depressing. Faux small caps don't work? But it is just a simple span, how could they mess up something that basic? Must I give up my drop cap with faux small caps?

You can try it, of course (I never discourage the enthusiastic endeavors of others), but, of all the things, un-freaking-believably, we just ran into this yesterday. A bookmaker who was not here back in the day of THAT BOOK, the one with the mis-described (by the client) "drop-cap" (she meant, Raised Initial) followed by smallcaps. So, she (bookmaker) did a faux-small-cap (all caps with <small> tags) and, (Jim Nabors voice here), Sur-prise, Sur-prise, Sur-prise!, ADE broke the words at random locations. Man, it just does not seem to like the word "small" inside ANY brackets. ;-) Not smallcaps with something else...{shrug}.

@cybmole, I agree. I personally like to use a logical phrase or sentence fragment, not necessarily the same number of words for each chapter. I really don't like the "single word" set off this way -- a short word like "the" or "but" looks like an orphan child sitting there in its solitary all-caps splendor. Even if traditional publishers have been using that for several centuries now (at least since the mid-1800's).

We use our own eyes, regardless of what existed before, and usually, we end up having to discuss it with the client, because we still have a very large clientele that doesn't really "get" the whole reflowable thing.

Use font-variant and :first-line, and nothing will actually be lost (you will not see the small-caps in most readers, but is it so important?)

Hmmm...it's an idea. I haven't tried using BOTH that and a span of any kind (for whatever), together...I wonder if I could create some type of ePUB fall-back, like we do with Kindle? Hmmmmmmm. I mean, we know that first-line, etc., does not work on Nook. I believe it does not work on Kobo, but not 100% sure. It works on iBooks, but we really don't design "for" iBooks, per se. We aim our design more or less toward highest ROI (Return on Investment) for the buyer/client/author.

Hitch

[cybmole]

A small update. I thought that swapping all occurrences of <small for <span, with a suitable font size might improve things in ADE. it doesn't. Seems that having multiple spans in the 1st line is what confuses it.
the "graceful fall back" idea doesn't really work either, you get a phrase of FULL SIZE CAPS which looks ghastly, if the font-variant is ignored & there are no other qualifiers. I@ve not yet tried the first line CSS option to see if ADE knows that one

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by cybmole

the "graceful fall back" idea doesn't really work either, you get a phrase of FULL SIZE CAPS which looks ghastly, if the font-variant is ignored & there are no other qualifiers.

That must be because you have the CAPS hardcoded to start with, something like this should really give a graceful fallback:

<p><span class="first_phrase">This is the first phrase</span> of the chapter...</p>

span.first_phrase {
  font-variant: small-caps;
}

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Jellby

That must be because you have the CAPS hardcoded to start with, something like this should really give a graceful fallback:

<p><span class="first_phrase">This is the first phrase</span> of the chapter...</p>

span.first_phrase {
  font-variant: small-caps;
}

Jellby:

Yes, that would of course work. The problem is, it doesn't provide anything for the readers/devices that don't recognize small-caps, which are unfortunately plentiful. Hmmmph. Maybe a bold? That would not be extra-special, heavens knows, but it would at least be "sumpin-sumpin." Of course, a bolded smallcaps might be overpowering to the page...

urghghghg. ADE, why do you have to be so ornery?

@Cyb: yes. Breaking the first line with multiple spans just seems to make it go bonkers, no matter what they are. This is what we discovered a few years back with the dreaded Raised-Initial/smallcaps first line effort.

Hitch

[cybmole]

Originally Posted by Jellby

That must be because you have the CAPS hardcoded to start with, something like this should really give a graceful fallback:

<p><span class="first_phrase">This is the first phrase</span> of the chapter...</p>

span.first_phrase {
  font-variant: small-caps;
}

Yes, the book series that "inspired" this thread has hard coded caps

OH & I dared to say "sloppy publishing" in an Amazon review of the latest one- the fanboys(fanpersons) are NOT happy with me. how dare I blame the author , you#re supposed to review only the story not the crap product delivery...
(I'd bought + converted the AZW version, then I spotted & borrowed my library's epub version as a cross check - same hard coded caps & span issues in both)

[doubleshuffle]

I'm a bit confused by this discussion. Does the problem only arise when you use some fancy initial together with caps in <small> tags? Because in the last few poetry collections I uploaded here, I faked smallcaps like that, but with just standard initials, and it seems to be working fine; looks nice in ADE and on my Aura HD, and none of the millions of downloaders have complained either.

Am I missing something? The point is - I don't want a graceful fallback for ADE, I want to see something smallcappish on my RMSDK-driven reader. And I don't want to embed a font for smallcaps because I've downloaded too many books that do that and then the reader wants to use ligatures and uses lowercase for them and it looks ugly.

So am I safe using <small> tags for this limited purpose as long as I don't put other spans in the first line?

[cybmole]

yes,a single <small> tag is fine in ADE , it's when the code dips in and out of small in order to force large 1st letters on some words that the problem arises.

I think that with multiple spans the ADE line length algorithm opts for KISS & decides to treat all letters as full size width, & thus generates an over-short line

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Yes, that would of course work. The problem is, it doesn't provide anything for the readers/devices that don't recognize small-caps, which are unfortunately plentiful.

In this case the smallcaps are just an aesthetic device, so I wouldn't consider that a big problem. Wouldn't you like clients like me?

Hmmmph. Maybe a bold? That would not be extra-special, heavens knows, but it would at least be "sumpin-sumpin." Of course, a bolded smallcaps might be overpowering to the page...

I've used that in some cases, where the smallcaps did carry some meaning, with this trick:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?p=744547

It's either smallcaps or bold, but not both

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Jellby

In this case the smallcaps are just an aesthetic device, so I wouldn't consider that a big problem. Wouldn't you like clients like me?

Oh, Jellby, you big tease. {sigh}.

I've used that in some cases, where the smallcaps did carry some meaning, with this trick:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?p=744547

It's either smallcaps or bold, but not both

I'll look it over. That might be handy. Thanks!

Hitch

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

Kindles (KF8) handle font-variant: smallcaps

But that will hardly ever get used in a KF8 eBook as most KF8 eBooks start live as ePub and in ePub, the publishers use the fake smallcaps.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

I just tested on Bluefire and Mantano on my phone and both didn't show font-variant: smallcaps... I could have sworn it did the last time I tested it (many many moons ago)!

Maybe I am just going crazy... or maybe it was a feature built into the Premium versions?

Bluefire should not work as it's based on ADE code. I doubt it ever worked.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But that will hardly ever get used in a KF8 eBook as most KF8 eBooks start live as ePub and in ePub, the publishers use the fake smallcaps.

You'd be surprised the number of publishers that currently make use of smallcap variants, and css pseudo selectors and other things that don't work with ADE/RMSDK, and are simply letting the ePub chips fall where they may. Worst case scenario is the ePub version misses out on some frills and shows normal text.

I've cracked the hood on many a commercial ePub that contains CSS that ADE is going to ignore (but that Kindlegen and iBooks can utilize).

It's not strictly a "ePub-then-KindleBook-after" world out there anymore. *shrugs*

[mrmikel]

Has anybody ever played with using an SVG encapsulated first line as text or graphic to resolve this mess? It'd be interesting to see if we can send a nook into orbit eventually via ADE!

[JSWolf]

Can someone please post a sample ePub that shows this issue of funk line ending using pseudo small caps with ADE? I don't want to have to reinvent the wheel (so to speak) and I'd like to play around with this.

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by mrmikel

Has anybody ever played with using an SVG encapsulated first line as text or graphic to resolve this mess? It'd be interesting to see if we can send a nook into orbit eventually via ADE!

RbnJrg showed off an example in Post #9 and beyond in this topic:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=237323