PDF is not an ebook format!

[crich70]

You can convert the book to kindle though it might be a bit of work. Programs like PDF to Epub can do it or Calibre. PDF to epub can convert it to html, epub or Kindle format. PDFtoEpub You can get it for free at present through their website. It is a good program. Turn the pdf into an epub and you can edit it in Sigil then convert it via Calibre.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by Ansileran

So you are ranting because you didn't bother to check the format on the book you bought beforehand when it was clearly not stated? While I agree that the website should have clearly stated which format it was in, as long as they didn't put any false information (saying it's an epub when it's actually a pdf), they are not in the wrong. Poor customer relationship, definitely.

If I walk into a grocery store and pick up a carton described as 'Milk', I expect it to be cow's milk.
Are you saying I need to check the small print each time to make sure that today they haven't decided to sell me soy milk instead?
Cow's milk is the default, it is the responsibility of the seller to make it clear if they are selling something else.
If I buy an eBook described as 'Adobe encrypted DRM', I expect it to be ePub with Adept DRM. For standard fiction ePub is the default, it is the responsibility of the seller to make it clear if they are selling something else.

Originally Posted by murraypaul

If I buy an eBook described as 'Adobe encrypted DRM', I expect it to be ePub with Adept DRM. For standard fiction ePub is the default, it is the responsibility of the seller to make it clear if they are selling something else.

They key words here are I expect. There is no reasonable expectation for Adobe Encrypted DRM to mean ADEPT encrypted ePub. At best, it is ambiguous and means and ADEPT encrypted document. It is your responsibility to check whether that means ePub or PDF.

The milk analogy doesn't really work out. Even ignoring the likelihood that milk has a legal definition (the maturity of the product, anything to do with health and safety are more highly regulated), consumers pay more for soy milk. The producer wants you know that it's soy milk in order to get the premium price, so they will advertise it as such. This is not the case with ePub vs. PDF. The products are considered equivalent. To people who are reading on computers or tablets, they are equivalent.

A much better comparison would be buying a computer from a consumer electronics store or office supply store, where many details about the product aren't listed. If a consumer doesn't ask about those details, it is the consumer's fault for not doing due dilligence.

[meeera]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

A much better comparison would be buying a computer from a consumer electronics store or office supply store, where many details about the product aren't listed. If a consumer doesn't ask about those details, it is the consumer's fault for not doing due dilligence.

Different countries and different expectations, perhaps? Here, if a product is described to the consumer as being suited to a purpose that it isn't suited for, the customer is entitled to a full refund.

Or perhaps it's just different personalities. We seem to have an interesting split here: there are those who believe the seller should describe their products fully up-front, and there are those who believe the onus is on the purchaser to either guess at what the product is, or chase around a variety of sources to figure it out.

Either way, though: when the seller has failed to describe the product clearly up-front (and, in this case, described it outright wrongly), and a customer is unhappy about that, I don't think that the best approach to customer service involves basically saying "yar boo sucks we've got your cash now so you can just nick off". Especially when their competitors will offer a refund no questions asked for up to (a week? I'm not sure) from purchase.

But hey, ultimately it's up to them what attitude they take to clear, accurate product description; no-one's going to court for five or ten bucks. But I know who I won't be buying from next, and I hope I may have saved someone here from the same trouble.

ETA: Huh, how did that giant Adobe PDF picture get into my first post? Is that some sort of automated thing? It's nothing to do with me.

[Ansileran]

Well, when I read "Adobe", until very recently I would have assumed it meant "pdf". I don't expect "epub" unless it's stated that it is.

If you want a milk analogy, a better one would be walking inside a store in France and picking up a random bottle of milk. Most likely it will be cow milk. But is it "full milk"? "half cream milk"? milk without cream? (I'm not sure if those are the terms in English) In China, depending on area you are just as likely to get yack milk. Or milk that is past consumption date. In 2006, if you wanted cow milk you had to specify or you would get soy milk.

Basically, you walked into an unkown store and assumed the product would be the same you usually get. It wasn't...

[Bob Russell]

Interesting discussion. Surely consumers are better off when it's made clear that an e-book is PDF or ePub and what kind of DRM is on it (if at all).

And I think everyone agrees that the typical PDF is no good on a small e-book reader. If I'm reading a novel I always prefer something like ePub or mobi.

But there are also a lot of people that feel typesetting and book layout is important to the reading experience. I enjoy that as well, even though I am not a stickler about it.

So my point is simply that a fast enough e-book reader with a large enough screen may just bring a completely new and more elegant view of the e-book. Both flowable e-book text and fixed page layouts (which are also closer emulations of paper books) seem to have an important place in the e-book world. There seem to be plenty of people that enjoy both types, and hopefully consumers are getting what they expect.

[Ansileran]

Originally Posted by meeera

Different countries and different expectations, perhaps?
...

Perhaps. I always assume the seller's goal is to sell. If the product is subpar, then they are going to try and hide it, not flaunt it.

Now, the fact that they stated it would work on your device (be sure your device was listed, because if it was 'most 6" readers' then it doesn't mean anything) and it doesn't open, then that is a fraud.

I agree that their customer service is crappy though. Don't they have to provide a "think period" during which you can get a refund? If not, that's a better reason to rant about than the file being pdf... I spent almost 6 years reading A4 pdfs on my 6" reader

[Rob Lister]

So there are a lot of folks here that interrupt 'Adobe encrypted (DRM)' as being an EPUB format. While I don't, I can honestly say I wouldn't necessarily interpret it as PDF either. Fact is, 'Adobe' is not a format, it is company.

Without question, the vender should be more specific; can we all agree on that?

Were I the vender, I would have provided a refund.
Were I the vender, I would clarify every instance.

But also without question, the buyer should be less assumptive; more diligent.

Nevertheless: The venders description of the product is misleading at worst, unclear at best. I would dispute the charge with my credit card company. Diesel will most likely fold and provide a return. Even if they don't, the paperwork on their part associated with a dispute will incur far more labor costs on their part than any profit they made from this sale.

Originally Posted by meeera

I don't think that the best approach to customer service involves basically saying "yar boo sucks we've got your cash now so you can just nick off".

I agree that it isn't the best approach to customer support. On the other hand, giving refunds on digital products leaves them in a difficult position. The consumer has the goods. There is no way to actually return those goods.

Computers have always bumped into this issue. Even in the 1980's, when software was distributed on physical media (with copy protection), most retailers would refuse to accept returns. They refused to do so because it was possible for the consumer to copy the floppy and return the physical product. Ebooks face the same issue, only perhaps a bit worse because those bits were never in shrink-wrap so there is no way of accepting returns on unopened products.

So it's not necessarily a case of a company having your money and telling you to take a hike. It could very well be a company who can't accept returns so they don't accept returns, and it's far too easy for people to scam them if they offer refunds on non-returnable products so they don't offer refunds.

[jersysman]

This is why I like dealing with Amazon. Their CS is a lot better and if something was not what I expected on an ebook I bought, even formatting errors, they would most likely take the book back and refund the money unless this behavior was habitual. Good CS goes a long way to making reputation for a company and bad CS goes even further the other way.

[Lutraa]

Originally Posted by jersysman

This is why I like dealing with Amazon. Their CS is a lot better and if something was not what I expected on an ebook I bought, even formatting errors, they would most likely take the book back and refund the money unless this behavior was habitual. Good CS goes a long way to making reputation for a company and bad CS goes even further the other way.

Of course, Amazon is notorious for having literally taken ebooks back, having gone into customers' Kindles back in 2009 to delete books (Orwell's "1984" and "Animal Farm") the company had no right to sell in the first place. Amazon can see what you have stored on your Kindle when you have the wireless or 3G radio on. So, unlike the situation the OP is commenting on, Amazon is an ebook vendor which is less likely to find customers trying to steal digital content by claiming that purchased materials are incompatible with the customers' devices.

Legally, I believe the situation here in the US is the same as in Australia with regards to representations of an item's serviceability: if the vendor claims it will work on a certain device, and it doesn't, the vendor must take the item back and refund the customer's money.

I would do a credit card chargeback.

[ebooker007]

Originally Posted by sangitasingh247

Agreed. Pdf should not be an ebook. I consider is just a read only version of the document, which is not editable and also saves the formatting of the document when opened in different text editors. I have had experience with this problem of format messing up in other editors.

Anyways, I like reading ebooks in my android device and I really love the page flip effect when I turn page. It feels like I am reading a paper back version of it and is also has the sound of a paper turning. This effect is absent in pdf.

Also, in ebook formats like epub, the text takes its space on the screen and crawls to next page, if the screen is small, but doesn't decrease the font size, making it easy to read, though the number of pages is increased. But, with pdf you have to zoom and then move the page left -right on the screen. Everytime, when i have to read a pdf, this frustrates me a lot.
Though I use a 8.9 inches tablet, but still reading a single page of pdf without zooming i.e. the original size taking whole screen is not possible. Howevr, when i convert the book to epub, I can read the whole book, sometimes in time less that that would require to read pdf version of it.

So, pdf is stupidity, If we I have to read a book, I would get a paperback and if I cannot, epub or other ebook format is best way.

PDF is an eBook format and will always remain an ebook format.
Its widely used everywhere because of its rich quality and interface.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

I agree that it isn't the best approach to customer support. On the other hand, giving refunds on digital products leaves them in a difficult position. The consumer has the goods. There is no way to actually return those goods.

Computers have always bumped into this issue. Even in the 1980's, when software was distributed on physical media (with copy protection), most retailers would refuse to accept returns. They refused to do so because it was possible for the consumer to copy the floppy and return the physical product. Ebooks face the same issue, only perhaps a bit worse because those bits were never in shrink-wrap so there is no way of accepting returns on unopened products.

So it's not necessarily a case of a company having your money and telling you to take a hike. It could very well be a company who can't accept returns so they don't accept returns, and it's far too easy for people to scam them if they offer refunds on non-returnable products so they don't offer refunds.

While I think the OP should have checked further before pushing the buy button, I also think that if a product is advertised ambiguously the company should at the very least give or offer to buy her a copy of the same book in epub format. They should not actually lose money doing this, as they already have her money firmly clenched in their hot little fists, and thee would be no issue of the customer getting something for nothing.

In her place I would be annoyed enough to go the dispute credit card charge route.

Helen

[avantman42]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

I agree that it isn't the best approach to customer support. On the other hand, giving refunds on digital products leaves them in a difficult position. The consumer has the goods. There is no way to actually return those goods.

Is it possible to remove the DRM authentication on the file so that it's no longer able to be read? I know Amazon can do that with their DRM, is it possible with Adobe DRM?

[markom]

Originally Posted by Zetmolm

Also check in the file properties if the PDF was 'tagged'. If yes, it's reflowable and so readable on smaller screens. If not, you have another point against the seller.

If not that then zooming in to the text width (cropped margins) in landscape mode should be just fine.

If our e-reader doesn't support precise cropping we can crop it or reflow it on PC using k2pdfopt.

http://www.willus.com/k2pdfopt/