Beware of Greeks Bearing Gifts: Let's talk about The Iliad

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by toomanybooks

In addition to traditional Iliad translations, there is the Christopher Logue series of poems based on the Iliad. He did not read Ancient Greek, but he read several translations and created a series of modern poetry interpretations of the Iliad. One book is retitled "All Day Permanent Red" after a Revlon lipstick color. They are a very interesting take on the story.

I went over to look at this book at Amazon, to see if there was a kindle edition. First book up was War Music. No kindle edition. I read the Look Inside. I haven't bought a new pbook in a while. I bought this one.

[Harmon]

BTW, do not be confused by the entity calling itself "Harry T." No real person could have as much knowledge as he exhibits, or be as ubiquitously present on so many threads, so it follows logically that he is a consortium of people using the same account, with multiple computers. This particular Harry T is obviously one of several classically educated Harrys, who probably met at Oxbridge, where they likely concocted the character of "Harry T" to conceal their nefarious undergraduate pranks. As further evidence of this conspiracy, I merely point out that nobody could own all those EBRs and actually read on all of them in the time alloted to a single person, not even blind Homer. Res ipsa loquitur

[Loosheesh]

Originally Posted by Harmon

BTW, do not be confused by the entity calling itself "Harry T." No real person could have as much knowledge as he exhibits, or be as ubiquitously present on so many threads, so it follows logically that he is a consortium of people using the same account, with multiple computers. This particular Harry T is obviously one of several classically educated Harrys, who probably met at Oxbridge, where they likely concocted the character of "Harry T" to conceal their nefarious undergraduate pranks. As further evidence of this conspiracy, I merely point out that nobody could own all those EBRs and actually read on all of them in the time alloted to a single person, not even blind Homer. Res ipsa loquitur

Ha, I knew it! Thanks for confirming

First off I the paper copy of the Lattimore translation that I requested from my local library system came in. Trying that out I have to agree that it is the best written version of the four I have tried so far. So I have settled on that, even if though it has meant a double read of Books I-IV (repeating from the Pope translation).

The LibriVox web site was mentioned in another thread and so I was curious if The Iliad in audio version would be available for free there. The answer is yes.

The Samuel Butler Translation

The Theodore Alois Buckley Translation

[Nyssa]

I've just reread Book I and struggled through Book II, and am not really enjoying it now. Book I was a great set up, but 10 pages of name after name after name was too much.

[issybird]

Originally Posted by Nyssa

I've just reread Book I and struggled through Book II, and am not really enjoying it now. Book I was a great set up, but 10 pages of name after name after name was too much.

Don't get bogged down by the names! Surely skimming them is sufficient. I agree with you that the first book is a terrific hook. I like how it manages to introduce some of the overarching themes of the epic by focusing on a petty power squabble between two generals. I was bemused by the title, The Rage of Achilles in my edition; I have also seen it rendered as The Wrath of Achilles. "Hissy-fit" would seem more accurate to me. Achilles even goes crying to mom because the bigger boy took his toy away.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Nyssa

I've just reread Book I and struggled through Book II, and am not really enjoying it now. Book I was a great set up, but 10 pages of name after name after name was too much.

Don't worry about the "catalogue of ships" in book 2. You can safely skip it.

[Billi]

What?? And that you're telling us after we struggled through all these endless paragraphs?
It was one of the worst chapters I ever read in any book.

[HarryT]

BTW: Purely for information, the line about "Greeks bearing gifts" is actually from Book 2 of the Aeneid, not from the Iliad:

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes"

Which can be translated as:

"I fear the Greeks, even those bringing gifts"

It often surprises people that the story of the Trojan Horse is NOT in the Iliad. It gets a very brief mention in the Odyssey, but the story of the Trojan Horse, as we know it, comes from Virgil's Aeneid, not from Homer at all.

[issybird]

Originally Posted by HarryT

BTW: Purely for information, the line about "Greeks bearing gifts" is actually from Book 2 of the Aeneid, not from the Iliad:

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes"

Which can be translated as:

"I fear the Greeks, even those bringing gifts"

It often surprises people that the story of the Trojan Horse is NOT in the Iliad. It gets a very brief mention in the Odyssey, but the story of the Trojan Horse, as we know it, comes from Virgil's Aeneid, not from Homer at all.

I know. As for Homer, it's all Greek to me (tm Shakespeare), but I (used to) read Latin. I figure we'll get to The Aeneid after The Odyssey.

Originally Posted by Billi

What?? And that you're telling us after we struggled through all these endless paragraphs?
It was one of the worst chapters I ever read in any book.

I take it you have never read the Book of Numbers in the Bible then?

I too just skimmed that lengthy portion making up most of latter portion of Book 2 of the Iliad. The action really picks up again in Book 3.

Book 5 is quite the bloodbath, no?

Originally Posted by HarryT

BTW: Purely for information, the line about "Greeks bearing gifts" is actually from Book 2 of the Aeneid, not from the Iliad:

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes"

Which can be translated as:

"I fear the Greeks, even those bringing gifts"

It often surprises people that the story of the Trojan Horse is NOT in the Iliad. It gets a very brief mention in the Odyssey, but the story of the Trojan Horse, as we know it, comes from Virgil's Aeneid, not from Homer at all.

What I found surprising, given that I had never read the Iliad before, was where in the timeline of the Trojan war the Iliad begins. The story of the seduction (or kidnapping) of Helen, "The face that launched a thousand ships," is years in the past at Book 1.

Speaking of Book 1 it was sure tough on women back then. When you really look at what was being talked about for the situation of Chryseis and Briseis is both are just spoils of war, goods to be done as pleased with, including raped.

[Nyssa]

Originally Posted by Billi

What?? And that you're telling us after we struggled through all these endless paragraphs?
It was one of the worst chapters I ever read in any book.

,

Originally Posted by HarryT

BTW: Purely for information, the line about "Greeks bearing gifts" is actually from Book 2 of the Aeneid, not from the Iliad:

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes"

Which can be translated as:

"I fear the Greeks, even those bringing gifts"

It often surprises people that the story of the Trojan Horse is NOT in the Iliad. It gets a very brief mention in the Odyssey, but the story of the Trojan Horse, as we know it, comes from Virgil's Aeneid, not from Homer at all.

I've just learned at least 3 new things from this post! Thanks Harry!!!

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by issybird

Don't get bogged down by the names! Surely skimming them is sufficient. I agree with you that the first book is a terrific hook. I like how it manages to introduce some of the overarching themes of the epic by focusing on a petty power squabble between two generals. I was bemused by the title, The Rage of Achilles in my edition; I have also seen it rendered as The Wrath of Achilles. "Hissy-fit" would seem more accurate to me. Achilles even goes crying to mom because the bigger boy took his toy away.

There's a Greek cultural concept that you need to be aware of when reading the Iliad (and the Odyssey) since, without it, the whole thing won't make sense, and that's a concept called "kleos", which is often translated as "glory", but it's a lot more than that.

"Kleos" is the whole point of a Homeric warrior's existence. It could be translated as "street cred" in the modern vernacular; it's what other people think about you. The key thing about it is that it's a zero-sum game; there's only a certain amount of kleos around, and the only way to increase your kleos is to take it from someone else.

The reason that Achilles removes himself from battle in book 1 is that his kleos has been diminished by having his captive taken from him; he's been "disrespected", and that makes it impossible for him to carry on fighting alongside the people who have insulted him in that way. He is acting in the only way possible for him to act in that situation, other than by killing the man who's insulted him, and he can't do that because it would make the entire (fragile) Greek alliance fall apart.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

What I found surprising, given that I had never read the Iliad before, was where in the timeline of the Trojan war the Iliad begins. The story of the seduction (or kidnapping) of Helen, "The face that launched a thousand ships," is years in the past at Book 1.

Yes, that's the way that epics traditionally work; they start "in media re" ("in the middle of things"), tell their story largely through "flashback", and end equally abruptly, too. The point is, of course, that the listener is expected to know the "back story" of the Trojan war - the kidnapping of Helen, etc.