Kindle 3 and Library Books - Page 3

Oldpilot · 11-09-2010, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiamondDave

No matter how insignificant one thinks it is, when you break the rules, whether they're copyrights, DRM, whatever, you're taking food off someone's table. Now, people may think that Apple or Amazon don't need any more money, and they're right, but that's the agreement you enter into when you license their content (you don't actually ever buy anything).

And note that Amazon gets the mouse's share of the retail, about 30 percent, compared to 70 percent for the author-publisher. You're taking food off the author's table, not Jeff Bezos's. He's perfectly happy in his hot tub.

Sydney's Mom · 11-09-2010, 08:55 PM

I pay for the right to use the library through my taxes. I have chosen to only read ebooks. I also chose to get a kindle. The library doesn't care that I convert the books to read on my kindle - when I asked them why they had a kindle for loan (with a backlist) when you couldn't read library books on a kindle, they didn't know what I was talking about.

Now, so long as I play by the rules with the library (only check on 6 books at a time, only keep them for a maximum of 3 weeks), they are happy. Actually, my increased use of the library makes their stats look good. Unless I were to copy the books and pass them around, no one cares if I convert (strip and convert) the books for my kindle, deleting them when I am done. I have said it before - I would love to see the headline:

Kindle User Arrested for Borrowing Library Books.

In this recessionary period, libraries are undergoing a resurgence. Why should I deny myself what I paid for through my taxes?

duckeedoug · 11-09-2010, 09:09 PM

Great debate. Where is the popcorn and Soda pop

desertgrandma · 11-09-2010, 09:23 PM

This argument will never be resolved, nor will the one about drm stripping rights.

Both have been going on, in one post or another, for years.

Yet........each side persists in trying to convince the other.

I am not neutral, by any means, but have finally learned to just watch....

Keeps me outta trouble.

reech · 11-10-2010, 03:24 AM

Technically (possibly legally, if there's ever a court case) you are doing something wrong by breaking DRM on a library book.

Morally, as long as you do not pass the un-DRMd book on, keep it for longer than the library-loan duration or sell it for a profit, then you're doing nothing wrong.

I'm envious of people who actually have this choice when it comes to e-lending. In the UK, I'm surprised that they don't make me check out stone tablets from the library...

vermontcathy · 11-10-2010, 12:33 PM

I'd have to agree that things aren't always black and white. Searching the web to find pirated ebooks? Bad. Buying a book legally from Amazon? Good. My mom and me both being on the same Amazon account so we can share our kindle books and not buy 2 copies? Fine. Briefly allowing a friend to register to my account just to download one of my books? I think it's fine - others disagree. What if another company comes out with a way cool ereader way better than kindle, and I want to switch? Is it amoral to break the DRM on my books, books I paid for, so I can read them on a different ereader?

Downloading a library book for free to read on Nook? Fine. Reading it on my PC? Fine. Downloading the book and tweaking the file so I can read it on the ereader of my choice? I don't see a big problem if you police yourself and stick to the rules (download limit, time limit, don't share the file).

The author gets paid for the copies the library buys. The author doesn't get any additional money if I read it on my PC rather than my kindle.

Morally, one has to ask what they would do if they couldn't break the DRM. Would they buy the book from Amazon, or would they buy a nook, Sony reader, or some other device for library books (or just read on the PC)? If you would have bought the book from Amazon, then yes, you are hurting the author by breaking the DRM. But if you would have bought a 2nd ereader (or just a library-capable ereader in the first place), then you aren't hurting the author.

ManosHandsOfFate · 11-10-2010, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

This argument will never be resolved, nor will the one about drm stripping rights.

Both have been going on, in one post or another, for years.

Yet........each side persists in trying to convince the other.

I am not neutral, by any means, but have finally learned to just watch....

I've only been here a few months and I'm starting to get to the same place.

chas0039 · 11-10-2010, 08:45 PM

Here is an interesting addition to the dialogue. Suppose a Jet Book user downloads and reads his library book on his Jet Book? Doing nothing but complying with the rules as outlined when he purchased the Jet Book, and doing nothing else, the library book will never expire due to the fact the Jet Book has no clock to keep track of the due date.

Soooo... is how much do you guys and women, think he is violating the law when he "forgets" to delete the book at the end of the 21 days?

vermontcathy · 11-12-2010, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chas0039

Here is an interesting addition to the dialogue. Suppose a Jet Book user downloads and reads his library book on his Jet Book? Doing nothing but complying with the rules as outlined when he purchased the Jet Book, and doing nothing else, the library book will never expire due to the fact the Jet Book has no clock to keep track of the due date.

Soooo... is how much do you guys and women, think he is violating the law when he "forgets" to delete the book at the end of the 21 days?

I'd say to that user, "What if it DID expire, and there was nothing you could do about it?" If the user says, "I want the book forever, not just 3 weeks, so if I couldn't prevent it from expiring, I would have bought the book." Then it's immoral because he's robbing the author of money. But if he says, "I wouldn't have bought the book regardless. If I couldn't finish it in 3 weeks, I'd try to check it out again, or check out the paper book, or just forget it - I wouldn't read the book at all - I'd find something else to read." Then I don't think it's immoral for that Jet Book user to "forget" to delete it.

On a side note, Adobe ePub DRM works on a device that doesn't have a clock? I guess this means our kindles know not just the time but the date also? Otherwise how does it know the weeks are up?

tm3 · 11-12-2010, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vermontcathy

Briefly allowing a friend to register to my account just to download one of my books?

this is interesting -- how do you do it?

re the library books ... once the DRM is stripped they are still able to "expire" on time, correct? so by converting one is not essentially stealing a book from the library in that they can keep it forever?

ebookerz · 11-12-2010, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tm3

this is interesting -- how do you do it?

re the library books ... once the DRM is stripped they are still able to "expire" on time, correct? so by converting one is not essentially stealing a book from the library in that they can keep it forever?

I would say that technically it is. When you rent a paper book and you copy the whole thing to keep it long-term, you will break some copyright laws, too.

Doesn's mean I haven't done it before...

emalvick · 11-12-2010, 10:40 AM

I assume the Kindle must have some calendar as it is able to keep track of your periodicles to some extent (maybe not as fully as your Calibre or Amazon does on your my Kindle page).

I've always wondered, though, does DRM and duration of lending need to be connected? If you borrow an ebook from a library and you want to get it into a format compatible with your reading device... why should the time limit be lost?

Ultimately, it would be nice if Amazon would somehow make a way for users to be able to use library books. That could be as simple as providing an app to convert the appropriate epubs to a Kindle format or just allowing for Kindles to read epubs in the first place.

TallMomof2 · 11-12-2010, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tm3

this is interesting -- how do you do it?

re the library books ... once the DRM is stripped they are still able to "expire" on time, correct? so by converting one is not essentially stealing a book from the library in that they can keep it forever?

Once the DRM is removed the file doesn't expire. If you check your "My Digital Editions" folder all of the book files are still there. If you wanted, you could remove the DRM from "expired" books and then be able to read the book.

voracious71 · 11-12-2010, 03:01 PM

I love my Kindle. But I also love library books. So, I picked up the Kobo Wireless..it was cheap enough. I wish Kindle would get on board with the library thing but it doesn't seem likely.

**Update** The Kobo Wireless will be going back(unless I give it to my mom as a gift)..I also have an iPad, and downloaded Bluefire Reader..I can now read library books on my Ipad. Cool!

Barty · 11-13-2010, 01:26 PM

I'm hoping amazon will get round to supporting library epub just to have feature parity with other ereaders, as they did with lending. Then we will get epub capability in the back door sort of way. If that happens, amazon will pretty much own my butt, which I will happily sell to them

Edit:
Oops ever say something that came out dirtier than you intended? I just realized I used back door and butt in the same paragraph.

11-12-2010, 03:01 PM	#44
voracious71 Addict Posts: 384 Karma: 1360936 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Quahog, RI Device: Nook, Kindle PW4, Kobo Clara	I love my Kindle. But I also love library books. So, I picked up the Kobo Wireless..it was cheap enough. I wish Kindle would get on board with the library thing but it doesn't seem likely. Update The Kobo Wireless will be going back(unless I give it to my mom as a gift)..I also have an iPad, and downloaded Bluefire Reader..I can now read library books on my Ipad. Cool! Last edited by voracious71; 11-14-2010 at 10:23 PM.

11-13-2010, 01:26 PM	#45
Barty doofus Posts: 2,528 Karma: 13088847 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kindle Voyage	I'm hoping amazon will get round to supporting library epub just to have feature parity with other ereaders, as they did with lending. Then we will get epub capability in the back door sort of way. If that happens, amazon will pretty much own my butt, which I will happily sell to them Edit: Oops ever say something that came out dirtier than you intended? I just realized I used back door and butt in the same paragraph. Last edited by Barty; 11-13-2010 at 01:29 PM.

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11-09-2010, 08:55 PM	#32
Sydney's Mom Wizard Posts: 2,895 Karma: 6995721 Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Idaho, on the side of a mountain Device: Kindle Oasis, Fire 3d Gen and 5th Gen and Samsung Tab S	I pay for the right to use the library through my taxes. I have chosen to only read ebooks. I also chose to get a kindle. The library doesn't care that I convert the books to read on my kindle - when I asked them why they had a kindle for loan (with a backlist) when you couldn't read library books on a kindle, they didn't know what I was talking about. Now, so long as I play by the rules with the library (only check on 6 books at a time, only keep them for a maximum of 3 weeks), they are happy. Actually, my increased use of the library makes their stats look good. Unless I were to copy the books and pass them around, no one cares if I convert (strip and convert) the books for my kindle, deleting them when I am done. I have said it before - I would love to see the headline: Kindle User Arrested for Borrowing Library Books. In this recessionary period, libraries are undergoing a resurgence. Why should I deny myself what I paid for through my taxes?

11-09-2010, 09:09 PM	#33
duckeedoug Zealot Posts: 122 Karma: 160 Join Date: Mar 2008 Device: Sony PRS 505	Great debate. Where is the popcorn and Soda pop

11-09-2010, 09:23 PM	#34
desertgrandma Enjoying the show.... Posts: 14,270 Karma: 10462841 Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Arizona Device: A K1, Kindle Paperwhite, an Ipod, IPad2, Iphone, an Ipad Mini & macAir	This argument will never be resolved, nor will the one about drm stripping rights. Both have been going on, in one post or another, for years. Yet........each side persists in trying to convince the other. I am not neutral, by any means, but have finally learned to just watch.... Keeps me outta trouble.

11-10-2010, 03:24 AM	#35
reech Connoisseur Posts: 97 Karma: 132 Join Date: Sep 2009 Device: Sony eReader PRS-600	Technically (possibly legally, if there's ever a court case) you are doing something wrong by breaking DRM on a library book. Morally, as long as you do not pass the un-DRMd book on, keep it for longer than the library-loan duration or sell it for a profit, then you're doing nothing wrong. I'm envious of people who actually have this choice when it comes to e-lending. In the UK, I'm surprised that they don't make me check out stone tablets from the library...

11-10-2010, 12:33 PM	#36
vermontcathy Connoisseur Posts: 98 Karma: 10000 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: vermont Device: Kindle 11, PW5, Oasis	I'd have to agree that things aren't always black and white. Searching the web to find pirated ebooks? Bad. Buying a book legally from Amazon? Good. My mom and me both being on the same Amazon account so we can share our kindle books and not buy 2 copies? Fine. Briefly allowing a friend to register to my account just to download one of my books? I think it's fine - others disagree. What if another company comes out with a way cool ereader way better than kindle, and I want to switch? Is it amoral to break the DRM on my books, books I paid for, so I can read them on a different ereader? Downloading a library book for free to read on Nook? Fine. Reading it on my PC? Fine. Downloading the book and tweaking the file so I can read it on the ereader of my choice? I don't see a big problem if you police yourself and stick to the rules (download limit, time limit, don't share the file). The author gets paid for the copies the library buys. The author doesn't get any additional money if I read it on my PC rather than my kindle. Morally, one has to ask what they would do if they couldn't break the DRM. Would they buy the book from Amazon, or would they buy a nook, Sony reader, or some other device for library books (or just read on the PC)? If you would have bought the book from Amazon, then yes, you are hurting the author by breaking the DRM. But if you would have bought a 2nd ereader (or just a library-capable ereader in the first place), then you aren't hurting the author.

11-10-2010, 08:45 PM	#38
chas0039 Sceptic Posts: 573 Karma: 73436 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: The Lake Device: rooted Nooks, retired. JetBook Lite, Kindle 3, 4, Kobo Nia, Libra H2O.	Here is an interesting addition to the dialogue. Suppose a Jet Book user downloads and reads his library book on his Jet Book? Doing nothing but complying with the rules as outlined when he purchased the Jet Book, and doing nothing else, the library book will never expire due to the fact the Jet Book has no clock to keep track of the due date. Soooo... is how much do you guys and women, think he is violating the law when he "forgets" to delete the book at the end of the 21 days?

11-12-2010, 10:40 AM	#42
emalvick Groupie Posts: 166 Karma: 5358 Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Davis, CA Device: Kindle 3	I assume the Kindle must have some calendar as it is able to keep track of your periodicles to some extent (maybe not as fully as your Calibre or Amazon does on your my Kindle page). I've always wondered, though, does DRM and duration of lending need to be connected? If you borrow an ebook from a library and you want to get it into a format compatible with your reading device... why should the time limit be lost? Ultimately, it would be nice if Amazon would somehow make a way for users to be able to use library books. That could be as simple as providing an app to convert the appropriate epubs to a Kindle format or just allowing for Kindles to read epubs in the first place.

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