Massive wave of ebook piracy?

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Krystian Galaj

Talk about rhetorical tricks... you have the position of your discutant explained in plain, clear English - even I completely understand it - your points shown to be nonsense, and instead of refuting it with rational arguments, or concede when you find none, you choose to dismiss the whole matter as "so poorly constructed I had no clue what you were talking about".

I hope you can do better than that

Whatever.

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by Krystian Galaj

Talk about rhetorical tricks... you have the position of your discutant explained in plain, clear English - even I completely understand it - your points shown to be nonsense, and instead of refuting it with rational arguments, or concede when you find none, you choose to dismiss the whole matter as "so poorly constructed I had no clue what you were talking about".

I hope you can do better than that

Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald

Whatever.

Apparently not

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by John F

I thought you could break DRM if it wasn't usable anymore? For example, if adobe decided to shutdown their servers, making ADE drm unusable, then you could strip the DRM on books you own?

I'm afraid that's not so. The only exception to the prohibition of breaking DRM in the DMCA that applies to e-books (contrary to what some posters here believe or would like to believe) is #6 which applies only to e-books that have DRM that blocks text to speech features in readers. And that one applies only if a particular title has no editions available where text to speech is available. In otherwords, if a particular title is sold by a publisher and none of the editions published will allow text to speech work on a reader (either device or software) because of the DRM, then the DRM maybe legally removed for the purpose of using the book on a text to speech device.

DMCA applies only to the USA, btw.

[kevinp]

Originally Posted by FF2

I think the two posters before me have kind of nailed the feelings of quite a number of people. Let's see: cut down tree, mill and turn to pulp, press to paper, cut to size, print and ink costs, bind it, cover it with heavier stock, ship across country/world, inventory it, stock it on shelves, sell at register and sell for equal or less than the cost of the ebook version. Seems perfectly priced. Hmmm.

That's been the topic of many posts on these forums and mostly what this one is about. I can't figure out why these people keep arguing back and forth...

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

Huh? (I've bolded the part I don't get, here.)

I don't think I said anything about downloading vs. not downloading. Rather, I wrote about why it's in your own best interest to see that the authors get paid -- regardless of how you got the book. Send a check care of their agent. Paypal them some money! I don't care how... although actually buying the eBook -- when possible -- encourages their publisher to take a risk on the next book, and to make more ebooks, and all sorts of other stuff that we'd all presumably like to see.

If it was worth your time to read, it was worth your money to pay for (IMHO). Even if you just get it out of the library, it still serves to encourage the library to purchase the author's next book. There are plenty of authors who would love to go full-time. Most could triple or quadruple their output if they did. Paying for what you like sends a strong market signal -- I want more of this! Use the market to your advantage. This is one place where money talks far, far louder than any other thing most individuals can do.

Xenophon

Just because a book is downloaded it doesn't mean it is actually read. If someone downloads your book you have about the same chance of it being read as you would have if it was in a massive library. IF it was read all your other arguments would come into play, but if it is just downloaded and not read they are irelevant.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by thrawn_aj

So, breaking DRM on a book you've purchased is now considered stealing? Damn, I hate it when ol' Webster revises his dictionary without consulting me .
.

I don't know about anywhere else, but in the UK, America, and most of Europe, breaking the DRM is a much more serious crime than downloading a pre-broken copy. Which makes it odd that a lot of the people who stamp their feet about copyright violation also encourage people to circumvent DRM.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Richey79

Interesting and relevant article: http://torrentfreak.com/book-piracy-...ndously101023/.

Pirates buy the material they like and respect, too. They aren't doing any damage to the market for published material, either, unlike the majority of publishing houses.

The only independent research on piracy that has ever been carried out concluded that people who download unauthorised content buy more legitimate content than people who don't. Whereas entertainment industry funded research that claimed billions of dollars were lost due to piracy was debunked by the US government.

Given those two facts, I don't really see what the fuss is about. If there is any massive wave of ebook piracy on the horizon that can only be a good thing for consumers, publishers, retailers and hardware manufacturers alike. (Writers are already benefitting from it, and will obviously continue to do so).

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by John F

I thought you could break DRM if it wasn't usable anymore? For example, if adobe decided to shutdown their servers, making ADE drm unusable, then you could strip the DRM on books you own?

In UK/Europe law it just says circumvention of copyright protection schemes. That would apply just as equally to an old C64 game where you had to type in a word from the manual that you lost 30 years ago.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by kevinp

That's been the topic of many posts on these forums and mostly what this one is about. I can't figure out why these people keep arguing back and forth...

Call it a hobby. But with nearly 15,000 views for this thread, there does seem to be some interest in it.

[crich70]

There are some books in torrent files that could be considered legal though. I mean the Baen free library books for example. And at least some classic books are also in torrent files (usually as text files I'm sure). Some others are in a grey area I think. I mean take Treasure Island for example. It's available through sites like Gutenberg and I bet some publishers could have it on their sites for sale as well. So it might be both free and not free depending on where you look. At least some classic books are I imagine. So is it piracy if a book is available for free at some place like Gutenberg but being sold elsewhere? And of course if people want a particular book and a 'legal' ebook version isn't available they sometimes will download a copy even though it's not a legal copy because it's convenient. Not to say that it's right but if a book is either out of print or hard to find in pbook form and no legal ebook form is out there people will download it as a torrent so they can have access.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by crich70

I mean take Treasure Island for example. It's available through sites like Gutenberg and I bet some publishers could have it on their sites for sale as well. So it might be both free and not free depending on where you look. At least some classic books are I imagine. So is it piracy if a book is available for free at some place like Gutenberg but being sold elsewhere?...

Treasure Island is public domain so giving it out free is not illegal. However, if someone goes to the trouble of converting TI to e-book, properly formatting it and editing out all the OCR errors, puts it up for sale and then someone else comes along and starts giving away copies of the same edition, that would be morally wrong. Where it stands legally, I do not know.

[Ankh]

Originally Posted by crich70

So it might be both free and not free depending on where you look. At least some classic books are I imagine. So is it piracy if a book is available for free at some place like Gutenberg but being sold elsewhere?

The way I understand it, a fresh edition of the public domain book, say "Penguin classic" might contain (new) illustrations, freshly designed cover page, foreword written specifically for that edition. So, although the original book is in public domain, the release packaged as ebook has elements that are copyrighted, hence can not be deDRM-ed or redistributed legally.

Now, if the ebook was not DRM-protected, and someone carefully strips off all of that extra content, I have no clue if the formatting (typography, layout) is protected by law.

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

Just because a book is downloaded it doesn't mean it is actually read. If someone downloads your book you have about the same chance of it being read as you would have if it was in a massive library. IF it was read all your other arguments would come into play, but if it is just downloaded and not read they are irelevant.

Note, once again, that I said nothing about downloading vs. not downloading. It's pretty clear that downloading unauthorized, non-PD content is against the law in the US, but that's not what I was after either. Rather, I was attempting to address that part of the question where there's a straight-forward, pragmatic, in-your-own-best-interest kind of argument, to wit:

• Pay for what you read. If it's worth your time to read, it's worth your money to pay for.
• Remember that money speaks loudly indeed. Paying for something sends a market signal that you want more of the thing you are paying for. Markets respond to money.
• Paying for the books you like raises the likelihood that the author can go full-time. Full time authors produce lots more content, so you get more of what you like in the future.
• Paying for what you like tells the publishing houses that they should buy more of that stuff from that author. See previous point for effect on the author and his output. But note that this option also exercises significant influence on the decision makers inside the big mean corporations. Not as much, perhaps, as one might wish. But far, FAR more than "screw them because they're screwing me" does.

There it is. No moral suasion. No judgement of actions as good, bad, or indifferent. I do have opinions in this area, but my observation suggests that making moral arguments in a discussion site is likely to have less-than-no-effect. At best. This is just the pragmatic part of why it's a good idea to pay for the things you like.

As for the great big download of a zillion books, 99.9% of which the downloader will never read... Shrug. They'd do better to seek out legal source (IMHO). High borrowing rates from the library lead to more copies bought by the library (see previous points). Legitimate free downloads from a publisher's web-site (it does happen, although not nearly so often as it should!) give market research data from which the publisher can learn about what's popular. (I have my doubts about the Big-6's ability to learn from anything, but that's neither here nor there.) All these legal avenues have side-benefits that go far beyond "free to me." Probably in your own best interest (from that selfish, pragmatic viewpoint I've been using above) to go that route when possible.

For the rest? Money sent to the author or his agent along with a "I downloaded a 'pirate' version of this book (aaaarrrr, mateys!); I'd have bought it if it were available. Here's your royalty." note makes it pretty clear that there's money to be made from an electronic edition. And money talks...

I guess the big theme here is "Money talks. Use it to encourage production of more of what you like."


Xenophon

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

Note, once again, that I said nothing about downloading vs. not downloading. It's pretty clear that downloading unauthorized, non-PD content is against the law in the US, but that's not what I was after either. Rather, I was attempting to address that part of the question where there's a straight-forward, pragmatic, in-your-own-best-interest kind of argument, to wit:

• Pay for what you read. If it's worth your time to read, it's worth your money to pay for.
• Remember that money speaks loudly indeed. Paying for something sends a market signal that you want more of the thing you are paying for. Markets respond to money.
• Paying for the books you like raises the likelihood that the author can go full-time. Full time authors produce lots more content, so you get more of what you like in the future.
• Paying for what you like tells the publishing houses that they should buy more of that stuff from that author. See previous point for effect on the author and his output. But note that this option also exercises significant influence on the decision makers inside the big mean corporations. Not as much, perhaps, as one might wish. But far, FAR more than "screw them because they're screwing me" does.

There it is. No moral suasion. No judgement of actions as good, bad, or indifferent. I do have opinions in this area, but my observation suggests that making moral arguments in a discussion site is likely to have less-than-no-effect. At best. This is just the pragmatic part of why it's a good idea to pay for the things you like.

As for the great big download of a zillion books, 99.9% of which the downloader will never read... Shrug. They'd do better to seek out legal source (IMHO). High borrowing rates from the library lead to more copies bought by the library (see previous points). Legitimate free downloads from a publisher's web-site (it does happen, although not nearly so often as it should!) give market research data from which the publisher can learn about what's popular. (I have my doubts about the Big-6's ability to learn from anything, but that's neither here nor there.) All these legal avenues have side-benefits that go far beyond "free to me." Probably in your own best interest (from that selfish, pragmatic viewpoint I've been using above) to go that route when possible.

For the rest? Money sent to the author or his agent along with a "I downloaded a 'pirate' version of this book (aaaarrrr, mateys!); I'd have bought it if it were available. Here's your royalty." note makes it pretty clear that there's money to be made from an electronic edition. And money talks...

I guess the big theme here is "Money talks. Use it to encourage production of more of what you like."


Xenophon

How would you know if you liked something if you never read it?

[crich70]

Lady Fitzgerald and Ankh both made some good points about my last posting. The point I was trying to make though was that not everyone would realize, think about, or consider that when downloading a book. They would probably figure 'it's a classic book, in public domain so I can do what I want with it, even if publisher x is selling it for 4.99 (or whatever price the publisher assigns it)'. A lot of people don't consider the moral or legal stuff connected with an older book when it's free one place and charged for at another. Plus there is the anon. factor of the web. People wouldn't go into their local bookstore and try to walk out with a 'free' copy of a book classic or not, but when it's just electronic data moving about from one computer to another we tend to not think of it as something that could hurt others in any way. I mean when someone downloads books via a torrent they're not hacking into someones computer system. The data is right out in plain sight for anyone to aquire. And part of that accessibility is what leads to piracy I think.