"The book industry is gonna get Napstered..."

[Barcey]

The answer as with most things is sex. People are motivated by sex. You have to make it sexy to buy ebooks.

People buy tickets to movies and theatre because they hope to get laid. Guys buy ridiculously expensive cars because they think it will help them get laid. Women buy expensive cloths so that guys will buy them expensive dinners, hoping to get laid. Guys buy bling because they want to get laid. Women buy lots of expensive shoes because... OK I don't understand why women buy so many damned shoes.

My point is that publishers and authors are going about it all the wrong way. All this rhetoric about stealing and piracy is just making them wear it like a badge of honor. It's giving them that bad boy image, they think they're Johnny Dieppe or Angelina Jolie. You've got to make them feel like they're cheap freeloaders that will never get laid. People that buy ebooks have to be viewed as attractive. You want them strutting around like peacocks except the feathers are receipts for the ebooks they purchased. Father's should be telling their daughters to check out the guys fancy new Kindle summary page to see how many ebooks they actually bought. B&N can hand out a little Facebook bling everytime you purchase an ebook.

Get young sexy models doing commercials. “Oh yeh that guy can do your laundry on his abs but I bought 20 ebooks last month”

I now return you to your regularly scheduled serious posts. Wew it was getting hot in here.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by ficbot

"Frankly, there are easier ways to make money than arguing 'til I'm blue in the face with a bunch of "free world" anarchists over the inherent value of a $2.50 DRM-free e-book."

I never said everything should be free. In fact, I said I can and do pay for my books.

"And it doesn't change the fact that I have a right to ask for payment for it, as opposed to giving it away."

This is true

"Readers also have the right to decline to pay whatever amount I ask, and walk away."

This is also true, but this is the part you don't seem to be accepting. When, in this thread, you have been confronted over and over again with readers saying they WILL pay a price that is fair, and then they qualify what 'fair' means to them (the $9.99 Amazon price seems to come up a lot; the principal objection most of us have is paying hardback prices for books which have less value than a hardback because there is no physical cost and we can't resell/loan/trade them so they have less uses) you complain it is not ENOUGH money and that you can earn more mowing lawns.

"So, no, I am not demanding to make a living on my books."

Yes, you are. You have, repeatedly, over and over again. And when people have called you on this, you've been nasty, sarcastic and bitter toward them. You have insulted the very customers you are trying to court. Some of us really were trying to have an honest dialogue with you, Steve. You seem incapable of even trying to see it from the point of view of the customer who, let's face it, is an important part of the equation too. No books without the writer, sure, but no *industry* without the customer, who is supplying the money here. Supplying the money to YOU, in some cases.

I've spent over $1000 on books at Fictionwise since I got my first ebook reader. I have rated more than sixty books. I am contemplating a major order right now where I'll be taking advantage of a loyal customer offer and perhaps buying 100 or more books. I have worked as a writer myself, been paid for it sometimes and not been paid other times, teach writing (among other things) to small children, have a father who works in the industry and is a published author and care passionately about the future of literacy. I am deeply concerned about how issues such as geo-blocking, DRM and format wars might impede future literacy as the digital generation grows up. It saddens me that more people don't read for fun, and it baffles me that the publishing industry refuses to get with the times and enable them to.

Steve, I have tried in this thread to have a meaningful dialogue with you on this. I have pointed out, both here and elsewhere, instances where it has been proven that people will pay for things they can get for free (iTunes, Cory Doctorow, I have spoken before too about Canadian musician Jane Siberry who found that when she offered her work under a 'pay what you think is fair' system, less than 20% of the downloaders thought zero was fair, and of the 80% who paid, more than half of them paid more than the suggested price, iTunes app store, I could go on and on) and made analogies to other industries to point out that a certain amount of loss is nearly always part of the cost of doing business and not just in digital media either, but it doesn't mean you don't do the business etc.) And you have been so fixated on the tiny percentage of pirating few that you have refused to address the valid points the paying customers such as myself have raised with you. You have come across badly, to me at least, and lost at least one potential paying fan.

I'm done dialoguing with you on this. You clearly are not ready to have a sensible conversation here, and I am through being tarred and feathered with the same brush. *I* buy books. *I* pay for them. If you don't want to talk to me about that, I'll leave you to your quest to convert the pirates to your cause and focus my book-buying dollar on authors who respect me and actually want my business.

I'm sure Steve can reply himself but I thought I'd mention something that seems to be forgotten in this thread.

Steve does offer his books at a reasonable price, DRM free, region free, in multiple formats and seemingly well formatted at that

Yet when he talks about the issues many(if not most) people keep bringing up these same issues that he has already addressed as reasons why people(not you personally ficbot) should be able to go grab a "copy" for free if they like anyway. Further to that they imply he is a self serving, money hungry capitalist that wants to "sit on his ass and be paid to write stories".

So, frankly, I can see his frustration.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Barcey

The answer as with most things is sex. People are motivated by sex. You have to make it sexy to buy ebooks.

People buy tickets to movies and theatre because they hope to get laid. Guys buy ridiculously expensive cars because they think it will help them get laid. Women buy expensive cloths so that guys will buy them expensive dinners, hoping to get laid. Guys buy bling because they want to get laid. Women buy lots of expensive shoes because... OK I don't understand why women buy so many damned shoes.

My point is that publishers and authors are going about it all the wrong way. All this rhetoric about stealing and piracy is just making them wear it like a badge of honor. It's giving them that bad boy image, they think they're Johnny Dieppe or Angelina Jolie. You've got to make them feel like they're cheap freeloaders that will never get laid. People that buy ebooks have to be viewed as attractive. You want them strutting around like peacocks except the feathers are receipts for the ebooks they purchased. Father's should be telling their daughters to check out the guys fancy new Kindle summary page to see how many ebooks they actually bought. B&N can hand out a little Facebook bling everytime you purchase an ebook.

Get young sexy models doing commercials. “Oh yeh that guy can do your laundry on his abs but I bought 20 ebooks last month”

I now return you to your regularly scheduled serious posts. Wew it was getting hot in here.

I like your fresh new approach to these matters

[Jaime_Astorga]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Let me again give you my example from the physical world that corresponds very well to ebooks. Someone has created a perfect rose after years of breeding. He has lined up tons of orders. Now someone takes a seed and breeds the roses by the thousands then gives them away. Yes, the original rose is still there. But you have stolen money, value from the breeder.

So you think this should be illegal (I don't think it would be, under current laws, as long as you didn't trespass or something to obtain the seeds)? And the world shouldn't get filled with this "perfect rose" for everyone to enjoy to allow the person who developed it to make a profit through artificial scarcity?

Originally Posted by Barcey

The answer as with most things is sex. People are motivated by sex. You have to make it sexy to buy ebooks.

People buy tickets to movies and theatre because they hope to get laid. Guys buy ridiculously expensive cars because they think it will help them get laid. Women buy expensive cloths so that guys will buy them expensive dinners, hoping to get laid. Guys buy bling because they want to get laid. Women buy lots of expensive shoes because... OK I don't understand why women buy so many damned shoes.

My point is that publishers and authors are going about it all the wrong way. All this rhetoric about stealing and piracy is just making them wear it like a badge of honor. It's giving them that bad boy image, they think they're Johnny Dieppe or Angelina Jolie. You've got to make them feel like they're cheap freeloaders that will never get laid. People that buy ebooks have to be viewed as attractive. You want them strutting around like peacocks except the feathers are receipts for the ebooks they purchased. Father's should be telling their daughters to check out the guys fancy new Kindle summary page to see how many ebooks they actually bought. B&N can hand out a little Facebook bling everytime you purchase an ebook.

Get young sexy models doing commercials. “Oh yeh that guy can do your laundry on his abs but I bought 20 ebooks last month”

I now return you to your regularly scheduled serious posts. Wew it was getting hot in here.

So... kulturkampf (culture war)? I like the sound of that, I'll get started on the opposition right away!

Also, I'd like to take a moment to thank everyone who has posted on this topic. It has been hilarious.

[HansTWN]

[QUOTE=Jaime_Astorga;532307]So you think this should be illegal (I don't think it would be, under current laws, as long as you didn't trespass or something to obtain the seeds)? And the world shouldn't get filled with this "perfect rose" for everyone to enjoy to allow the person who developed it to make a profit through artificial scarcity?

I think you can obtain a patent for the rose. It doesn't matter, it is just an example. What I am saying is that the world can enjoy the rose and the poor man who devoted his life to developing it also gets something for his work. What I am suggesting is a win-win.

[Greg Anos]

[QUOTE=HansTWN;532329]

Originally Posted by Jaime_Astorga

So you think this should be illegal (I don't think it would be, under current laws, as long as you didn't trespass or something to obtain the seeds)? And the world shouldn't get filled with this "perfect rose" for everyone to enjoy to allow the person who developed it to make a profit through artificial scarcity?

I think you can obtain a patent for the rose. It doesn't matter, it is just an example. What I am saying is that the world can enjoy the rose and the poor man who devoted his life to developing it also gets something for his work. What I am suggesting is a win-win.

I believe you meant a cutting, not seeds. (I've been a rose grower for 15 years.) And yes, you are referring to a plant patent. Which, in the US, costs around $2000 US and a lot of paper work to acquire. And it lasts exactly 20 years. Then the rose goes into the public domain, and everybody can take a cutting (copy it) to their heart's (and growing ability's) content.

Yet there's thriving business creating roses. Please explain to me why copyright needs to be Life + 70 (or longer, and longer, and longer...).

EDIT:

I'd like to discuss at more depth. Nobody talks about patent trolls with plant patents, so maybe it won't branch off that way.

Patents on roses work because roses are hard to propagate. Most amateur growers don't even bother.

Other plants, like Irises, propagate like rabbits. Because of that, no breeder bothers to spend the money to get a plant patent. So, with no patent protection, there can't be an Iris business, right? Wrong! There are commercial breeders, just like roses, and there are new hybrids every year, just like roses. And they go for a pretty penny, the first year or two. Then the propagation rate takes over and the price drops like a rock to a couple of bucks. You can get them free if you know somebody who grows that particular variety.

I mention this to show that money can be made with patent or without patent. Somewhat different method, but money is still made.

Yet we're told that civilization will come to an end without massively enforced copyright, that lasts (basically) forever. I'm sorry, I don't see it...

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by ficbot

This is also true, but this is the part you don't seem to be accepting. When, in this thread, you have been confronted over and over again with readers saying they WILL pay a price that is fair, and then they qualify what 'fair' means to them (the $9.99 Amazon price seems to come up a lot; the principal objection most of us have is paying hardback prices for books which have less value than a hardback because there is no physical cost and we can't resell/loan/trade them so they have less uses) you complain it is not ENOUGH money and that you can earn more mowing lawns.

You might want to do a little more research. I sell my books for $2.50 right now (up from $2.00 when I started out). I think $10 for an e-book is crazy. I won't pay it. I don't ask my customers to pay it. So don't put those words in my mouth... they are not mine.

Originally Posted by ficbot

Steve, I have tried in this thread to have a meaningful dialogue with you on this...

As I said before, most of my comments have not been directed at you, ficbot, but at others like ahi who believe my work should be free and that I should have no say over the matter. Your comments to me seem to suggest you either are either skimming through my comments, or assuming things about me that aren't true.

Originally Posted by ficbot

And you have been so fixated on the tiny percentage of pirating few that you have refused to address the valid points the paying customers such as myself have raised with you. You have come across badly, to me at least, and lost at least one potential paying fan.

I'm done dialoguing with you on this. You clearly are not ready to have a sensible conversation here, and I am through being tarred and feathered with the same brush. *I* buy books. *I* pay for them. If you don't want to talk to me about that, I'll leave you to your quest to convert the pirates to your cause and focus my book-buying dollar on authors who respect me and actually want my business.

I'm sorry if I've been too busy defending my basic rights to dicker over book costs with you. As far as I know, I personally do not have a problem with pirates or theft. But I am willing to speak up for others that have a vested interest here, and are possibly too afraid to speak up for fear of being tarred by the brush I'm presently dripping from.

If you want to talk about ways to sell my e-books that is better than the DRM-free $2.50 in multiple formats business model I have used from the beginning, I'm willing to discuss it. So far, your comments have been directed at others (like Amazon) more than at me... or you just assumed I was good with the Amazon setup (I'm not. I tried it, decided it sucked, and pulled my books out of their store).

[HarryT]

With the utmost respect, ficbot old chap, Steve is selling his books DRM free and in multiple formats. I would say that he is the very model of what we would all like to see from other authors and publishers - sensible prices and no DRM.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by HarryT

With the utmost respect, ficbot old chap, Steve is selling his books DRM free and in multiple formats. I would say that he is the very model of what we would all like to see from other authors and publishers - sensible prices and no DRM.

Albeit ideally sans the paranoia and unrealistic sense of entitlement.

- Ahi

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I'm sorry if I've been too busy defending my basic rights to dicker over book costs with you.

Such a bloody drama queen!

You have no basic right of copyright. It is a highly artificial, historically recent (and arguably historically aberrant), legally (not naturally) derived government grant of monopoly whose exact nature differs from country to country and does not even exist in a few of them.

But you go on crying for yourself, you poor maligned, abused, thieved but still shiningly brilliant prodigy of a writer!

Or, alternatively, stop writing in protest. I promise you, Steve, that I will personally make sure the world and human civilization survives the loss of your unparalleled literary jewels!

- Ahi

[carld]

Originally Posted by ahi

Or, alternatively, stop writing in protest. I promise you, Steve, that I will personally make sure the world and human civilization survives the loss of your unparalleled literary jewels!

- Ahi

By stealing his works and passing them around to as many other thieves as you can, got it.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by carld

By stealing his works and passing them around to as many other thieves as you can, got it.

He should be so lucky! All the advertising, word-of-mouth (Hey buddy! Read This!) recommendation, and interest in the next book....

[carld]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

He should be so lucky! All the advertising, word-of-mouth (Hey buddy! Read This!) recommendation, and interest in the next book....

Except, in this scenario Steve has quit writing due to the "gimmie it for free" lot, so no next book.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by carld

Except, in this scenario Steve has quit writing due to the "gimmie it for free" lot, so no next book.

Until some paper publisher waived enough money under his nose.....

[netseeker]

Unfortunately some posts in this thread are crossing the line between civilized dispute and offensive language. Please don't get personal. Attack the argument and not the arguer!

Michael