"The book industry is gonna get Napstered..."

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by carld

Or maybe people should pay for what they want instead of downloading pirated copies off the internet?

Huh?

Most living authors are NOT available in ebook format, yet the vast majority of those still don't make the big bucks, and either have another job, or are used to living on a $20k advance, or are collecting welfare.

This will not change much with ebooks. If anything, some, who currently may not be with a major publisher, may make a bit more, by going directly to market.

Again: most interested buyers will pay for a product they want, and which is available. The key for the seller is to find a price point, at which their profit is maximized. For some, it will be $0, for others it will be $20 or more.

As for DRM or "piracy," they are largely irrelevant, if the above conditions are right.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

[COLOR="Blue"]... And people decide with their pocketbooks which products succeed and which don't.

I am not sure why you think that ahi is arguing something different?

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by ahi

Nobody pays me to sit on my ass and write about adventurous freight captains threatened by dormant viruses and spiders!!!

Well... maybe if you knew how to write...

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Well... maybe if you knew how to write...

the new endangered species --- the author!

Perhaps Ahi considers sitting on one's ass and writing memos to be more worthwhile?

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by Sonist

I am not sure why you think that ahi is arguing something different?

Because Ahi is arguing that the pocketbook should be put away altogether and authors should just give their work away for free.

There is a difference between someone saying "that is priced too high for what I get so I'm not going to buy it" and people saying "I want it for free so I have every right to get it for free if I can and authors should just build a bridge and get over it".

Cheers,
PKFFW

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

Because Ahi is arguing that the pocketbook should be put away altogether and authors should just give their work away for free.,
...

I must have missed this, could you point me to where he/she said this?

[ficbot]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

But that's the point! If you want to make money, you do things that make money! If being a writer doesn't pay, then either take the vow of poverty and be a full-time writer, or do something that pays lots of money. Then if you want to write, treat it as a hobby on the side.

Amen, Ralph! I'm sorry, Steve, but it's really hard for me to feel sorry for you on this one. It seems like it's not that being a writer doesn't pay you money---you do seem to get SOME sales. It's that it's not paying you whatever amount you have set in your head as the amount to support your lifestyle. And guess what, there are a LOT of jobs that don't pay that amount. There are a lot of things people would enjoy doing for a living that simply don't pay them enough money. My cousin plays in a rock band for example, and gets paid for it, but not enough to meet is needs. So he gives private lessons and teaches two mornings a week at a private school. I know someone else who runs cooking classes in French for schoolchildren. It's her 'passion' job and sometimes she does well with the money and sometimes she doesn't. So she registered with the local school board as a substitute teacher. On days she has bookings for the cooking classes, she declines the substitute teaching work. On days she does not have bookings, she accepts them. People make these sorts of compromises ALL the time in life. If you are asking us to accept the premise that writing is a 'job' then it's the same as any other job in that sometimes it may involves tasks you don't want to do, and sometimes you may have to moonlight because times are tough and the work or the money just isn't there. I myself am in this position right now, earning less than I should be, but it's the best I can find in this market. Such is life sometimes

[HansTWN]

there is a small, but significant difference. In any job, what you will be paid depends on how much income you generate. Yes, some jobs are paying very little. I hear people whining every day. Well, if you generate 500 USD in income for your employer you cannot expect to be paid 2000! If you feel underpaid, I have a suggestion for you. Start your own business or work somewhere else. Or go to your boss and demand a raise. If you are worth it, you will get it. If not, you should ask him to fire you -- that is what an old professor of mine recommended.

But a writer can create a lot of value, for a publisher, a book store, for himself -- if he writes a great book, people will be lining up to buy it. So if you give away free copies on the internet you are not just hurting the author. You are hurting all the people that work for the publisher, the bookstore, and indirectly all those that would benefit from spending the income that those sales would have created.

Let me again give you my example from the physical world that corresponds very well to ebooks. Someone has created a perfect rose after years of breeding. He has lined up tons of orders. Now someone takes a seed and breeds the roses by the thousands then gives them away. Yes, the original rose is still there. But you have stolen money, value from the breeder.

[HansTWN]

The "free" theory is especially dangerous in Western society. Take the US. Americans are not producing any physical goods anymore (yes, there are a few excceptions). Production of physical goods has been outsourced to Asia. What remains is services and intellectual property. Things in Europe are moving in the same direction. So the "free" crowd is just giving away their own future for free on the internet. Keep going!

[anappo]

to: PKFFW

> The industry is moving that way. I think it is a
> good thing and support it.

The industry just slapped geo-restrictions on Fictionwise. The shiny new B&N e-book shop has US-only on everything I checked. And everything I saw there had DRM on it.

Until the industry actually gets somewhere, I buy my books DRM free.

> I think it is the only significant reason and all
> the rest is just window dressing to justify it.

It is possible that Im wrong in this as a generalisation but I feel certain the price point beyond which someone would prefer darknet is actually higher than amazon's $10. I know for a fact that Ive never looked for a pirate copy because of pricing.

A'll in all, books are a pretty damn inexpensive form of enterteinment.

This might be because where I live, books are actually quite a bit more expensive. We only have slightly more than 1 million people speaking the language. A friend of mine is a publisher specializing in SF/F. The print runs are 1000 tops. And those runs take years to sell through. Yet she manages to feed herself and her two kids on this.

> when someone disagrees with the idea of "every digital book is
> valueless and should therefore be free"

Don't think this is what they are disagreeing with. Why would anyone thinking content (not copies!) should be free actually write on this forum? If free content was what we wanted - good for us - we have that already. There would be no further reason to debate on this topic. Those who do debate, obviously want something that differs from the current state. The desirable difference should also include ways for authors to make decent money with their creations. Is anyone here actually holding position contrary to this?

As I have said several times before - but it still doesnt seem to register - today we already have companies who are doing this - selling non-crippled e-books and paying authors for their work. This "future" is already here. In case of Baen, it has been here for 10 years.

If this "future" will not be here 10 years from now, I will piss on the grave of the publishing industry, amazon and the likes, for "educating" the young and impressionable gen-Y crowd to the point they will never ever buy a book again in their life.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by ficbot

Amen, Ralph! I'm sorry, Steve, but it's really hard for me to feel sorry for you on this one. It seems like it's not that being a writer doesn't pay you money---you do seem to get SOME sales. It's that it's not paying you whatever amount you have set in your head as the amount to support your lifestyle...

Sorry... did someone here think that I was doing this to pay my bills?...



...Okay, I'm back. No, I actually have a "day job," where I sit on my a$$ and maintain a website for a worldwide non-profit organization devoted to education, your welcome very much. So, everyone can kindly climb off the "Steve is self-serving" kick like I'm defending my shack with a shotgun. Frankly, there are easier ways to make money than arguing 'til I'm blue in the face with a bunch of "free world" anarchists over the inherent value of a $2.50 DRM-free e-book.

However, that doesn't change the fact that my writing is worth something, if for no other reason than that it is entertaining. And it doesn't change the fact that I have a right to ask for payment for it, as opposed to giving it away.

Readers also have the right to decline to pay whatever amount I ask, and walk away. They even have the right to try to bargain a new price with me, and I'm free to accept, or decline, their counter-offer. But readers DO NOT have the right to simply kick me in the nuts and take my work, just because they don't like how much I charge for it.

So, no, I am not demanding to make a living on my books. I am demanding my right to ask for compensation without being robbed.

And for that, I'm labeled stupid, self-serving, evil, talentless, petty, backward and greedy. Well, anyone who's read any of my books' dedications know what I say to those people.

So... maybe we should get back to the subject of being "Napstered." As I recall, the result of the trials of the music industry turned out to be the present situation where most people buy their digital music from Amazon and iTunes, and pay for every single download. Profit margins change, but the consumer still pays, the creator still gets paid, and even the middlemen get a cut. Is there some reason to suppose that this cannot work with e-books?

[HansTWN]

I don't think the situation is a dire as some people make it out to be. A lot of people are paying for legal downloads for music that they downloaded for free a few years ago. Didn't get Napster itself get "napstered", and Kazaa "kazaaed"? Give them reasonable prices and an easy way to do it most people will try to be honest. With ebooks we are not there yet, given the mess of different DRM systems that are tied to different readers.

The people who advocate free always get very upset and pull out the oddest explanations why they should get paid and others shouldn't be.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by Sonist

I must have missed this, could you point me to where he/she said this?

Saying "good riddance" to those authors who would like to be paid for their work.

Saying "digital copies" are valueless and therefore should be free.

Saying the fact the public can get something for free gives them the right to get it for free.

So, no, maybe Ahi hasn't used the exact words you quoted but he/she has certainly put forward the concept and idea.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[ficbot]

"Frankly, there are easier ways to make money than arguing 'til I'm blue in the face with a bunch of "free world" anarchists over the inherent value of a $2.50 DRM-free e-book."

I never said everything should be free. In fact, I said I can and do pay for my books.

"And it doesn't change the fact that I have a right to ask for payment for it, as opposed to giving it away."

This is true

"Readers also have the right to decline to pay whatever amount I ask, and walk away."

This is also true, but this is the part you don't seem to be accepting. When, in this thread, you have been confronted over and over again with readers saying they WILL pay a price that is fair, and then they qualify what 'fair' means to them (the $9.99 Amazon price seems to come up a lot; the principal objection most of us have is paying hardback prices for books which have less value than a hardback because there is no physical cost and we can't resell/loan/trade them so they have less uses) you complain it is not ENOUGH money and that you can earn more mowing lawns.

"So, no, I am not demanding to make a living on my books."

Yes, you are. You have, repeatedly, over and over again. And when people have called you on this, you've been nasty, sarcastic and bitter toward them. You have insulted the very customers you are trying to court. Some of us really were trying to have an honest dialogue with you, Steve. You seem incapable of even trying to see it from the point of view of the customer who, let's face it, is an important part of the equation too. No books without the writer, sure, but no *industry* without the customer, who is supplying the money here. Supplying the money to YOU, in some cases.

I've spent over $1000 on books at Fictionwise since I got my first ebook reader. I have rated more than sixty books. I am contemplating a major order right now where I'll be taking advantage of a loyal customer offer and perhaps buying 100 or more books. I have worked as a writer myself, been paid for it sometimes and not been paid other times, teach writing (among other things) to small children, have a father who works in the industry and is a published author and care passionately about the future of literacy. I am deeply concerned about how issues such as geo-blocking, DRM and format wars might impede future literacy as the digital generation grows up. It saddens me that more people don't read for fun, and it baffles me that the publishing industry refuses to get with the times and enable them to.

Steve, I have tried in this thread to have a meaningful dialogue with you on this. I have pointed out, both here and elsewhere, instances where it has been proven that people will pay for things they can get for free (iTunes, Cory Doctorow, I have spoken before too about Canadian musician Jane Siberry who found that when she offered her work under a 'pay what you think is fair' system, less than 20% of the downloaders thought zero was fair, and of the 80% who paid, more than half of them paid more than the suggested price, iTunes app store, I could go on and on) and made analogies to other industries to point out that a certain amount of loss is nearly always part of the cost of doing business and not just in digital media either, but it doesn't mean you don't do the business etc.) And you have been so fixated on the tiny percentage of pirating few that you have refused to address the valid points the paying customers such as myself have raised with you. You have come across badly, to me at least, and lost at least one potential paying fan.

I'm done dialoguing with you on this. You clearly are not ready to have a sensible conversation here, and I am through being tarred and feathered with the same brush. *I* buy books. *I* pay for them. If you don't want to talk to me about that, I'll leave you to your quest to convert the pirates to your cause and focus my book-buying dollar on authors who respect me and actually want my business.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by anappo

The industry just slapped geo-restrictions on Fictionwise. The shiny new B&N e-book shop has US-only on everything I checked. And everything I saw there had DRM on it.

Until the industry actually gets somewhere, I buy my books DRM free.

Ok, maybe I should have been more clear and I apologise for not being.

Many authors are moving in the direction of DRM free, region free, multiple format, yadda yadda yadda. On top of that, some content providers are moving that way too.

And good for you for buying your books DRM free. I applaud that.

What I don't applaud is using all the "I don't like DRM, too high price, yadda yadda yadda" as a justification for obtaining the content for free.

Originally Posted by anappo

Don't think this is what they are disagreeing with. Why would anyone thinking content (not copies!) should be free actually write on this forum? If free content was what we wanted - good for us - we have that already. There would be no further reason to debate on this topic. Those who do debate, obviously want something that differs from the current state. The desirable difference should also include ways for authors to make decent money with their creations. Is anyone here actually holding position contrary to this?

Ok seriously can we stop the semantics game of "copies" versus "content".

So all the "new digital era means everything should be free" people don't want the "content" for free they just want a copy of the digital file for free!!

So what do you want that "copy" for if not for the content it contains? Would you be happy with a file of the same size with all the 0's and 1's scrambled? I mean if you don't think the content of the file should be free only the copy of the file it shouldn't really matter to you right?

Originally Posted by anappo

As I have said several times before - but it still doesnt seem to register - today we already have companies who are doing this - selling non-crippled e-books and paying authors for their work. This "future" is already here. In case of Baen, it has been here for 10 years.

If this "future" will not be here 10 years from now, I will piss on the grave of the publishing industry, amazon and the likes, for "educating" the young and impressionable gen-Y crowd to the point they will never ever buy a book again in their life.

Yes, absolutely this business model works. NOW. Will it work in the future? Only so long as people admit that digital media(or the content it provides or whatever and however else you want to semantically put it) has value. If we keep going down the road of "I should be allowed to obtain a copy of the work for free" then this business model will no longer work because nobody will want to pay anything for their "copy".

Cheers,
PKFFW