Do you pirate books and why?

[ProfCrash]

Are you depriving the author and publisher, the creater and owner of the good, of money by down loading the e-book from a torrent site and not paying for it? Yes. That is theft.

I don't care that you are not depriving someone else of the ability to buy the e-book, you are taking something that has been assigned a value and not paying for it. Your actions are depriving someone of the money that they deserve. Stealing a recipie or the schematics to a product is theft. It is tried differently then stealing a cake or an IPad but it is still theft and there are penalties for it.

You are trying to justify depriving someone of their income based on the fact that it is somehow ok to steal the electronic version or the recipie and not a physical object. I get that you think that is some how logical or justifiable but the vast majority of people probably disagree with you.

When I wasnot making money, as a child, teenager, college student, unemployed adult, I got my books by going to the library. That is what you do when you are poor or don't have money. The author and publisher get paid and you get to read. I did not steal a book or a CD or a cake or anything along those lines because I wanted it and I could not afford it. It sucks not having money. I prefer working and being able to afford most of what I want at this time in my life. If I wasn't, I would not eat out, I would not be buying books (electronic or paper), I would not got to bakeries. I would avail myself of the options that exist for me.

Because that is what you do. You do not steal from others and try and develop justification for stealing because I want something that I cannot afford. And I sure as hell would not try and justify stealing a luxury item. Food, clothes, necessities of life I can see how desperate you could become and how that could lead to desperate acts. But not for books.

I am sorry but you are not going to convince me that it is ethical or right to steal an e-book because you have an e-reader and you want to read it and you cannot get it from the library. You can read the paper version, you can read other books. But don't try and blow smoke up my butt and come up with some Robin Hood explination fro depriving an author of money from his/her e-book.

[sbroome]

If ebook copies are "theft," so is a bad review.

That's the funniest thing I've read in a while.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

Are you depriving the author and publisher, the creater and owner of the good, of money by down loading the e-book from a torrent site and not paying for it? Yes. That is theft.

Why is that theft, but depriving them from money by reading my friend's copy, is not theft? Isn't that getting something for free that has been assigned a value?

What's the assigned value of the Harry Potter ebooks? How much is an unauthorized copy taking away from the author & publisher?

You are trying to justify depriving someone of their income based on the fact that it is somehow ok to steal the electronic version or the recipie and not a physical object. I get that you think that is some how logical or justifiable but the vast majority of people probably disagree with you.

No, I'm saying that "depriving someone of income" is not the same as "theft," and different laws cover those actions.

Convincing everyone I know that a particular author is a worthless scumbag so they won't buy his books might be "Defamation of character" (if I'm lying), and I might be liable for damages based on how many sales he didn't make--but that doesn't mean it was "theft." I didn't take money that he already had.

When I was not making money, as a child, teenager, college student, unemployed adult, I got my books by going to the library. That is what you do when you are poor or don't have money.

Or you read free copies from friends. Or buy dollar-a-bag books from rummage sales.

I'm not seeing how the author is better off with people doing that, than downloading unauthorized copies. Yes, one is legal and the other is arguably not (there are some cases where it may be legal), but that doesn't mean one is "theft," and it doesn't mean it's economically better to deprive the author of income by reading a pbook than an unauthorized ebook.

I am sorry but you are not going to convince me that it is ethical or right to steal an e-book because you have an e-reader and you want to read it and you cannot get it from the library.

I'm not trying to convince you that unauthorized ebook downloads are ethical; I'm trying to convince you that they're not theft. (Or rather, I'm trying to convince other lurkers who might be reading, 'cos I'm pretty sure you're not interested in legalities; you've decided that unauthorized ebooks are immoral enough that it doesn't matter what you call the act. Might as well call it "murder," as in "you're murdering the author's future career.")

If I broke into a warehouse and burned all the copies of the author's books, I'd be guilty of a really bad crime, and I might be held liable for expected income based on what I destroyed--but the crime wouldn't be "theft."

The idea that it's "stealing" to make extra copies is ridiculous. Stealing is the opposite of "making more." Theft is the opposite of sharing--even if the sharing is not allowed. It can still be illegal and immoral to do so, without being "theft."

Unauthorized copies can be a form of fraud (I'm claiming I have the right to distribute), interference with business (doing something that takes away someone else's legal sales opportunities), defamation (if I'm distributing copies that deliberately reflect badly on the original somehow), trademark & copyright infringement. But they're not theft.

[JsKindle3]

I have not pirated a book. if i really needed a book and couldnt get it any other way, id ask hubby to pirate it.

[Joykins]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

That fascinated me as well. Why not become a blog reviewer and get free copies? You'd be doing double-duty helping your fellow writer (well, for the books you liked.) Or perhaps download any of the HUGE number of freebies available from writers looking for exposure? Or libraries. Or lending.

Becoming a blog reviewer to get free copies is a ton of work. Not just in the reviewing, but publicizing the blog to the extent that you have the number of hits that makes publishers/authors find it worth their while.

I got 3 free books that way (out of HUNDREDS of reviews published between the blog and goodreads) and honestly, they were not very good books, not worth the effort at all. Imagine forcing yourself to read a book you can't stand because you've promised to review it, and then delivering a bad review. No one's happy, not even you, unless the pleasure of writing the scathing review makes up for it.

Libraries, freebies/deals, and lending are great resources that I fully exploit because my book budget has shrunk.

[ProfCrash]

So you are best buds with that guy on the torrent site? You are borrowing his copy of the e-book, reading it, and returning it? Or exchanging one e-book for another?

Please. downloading books from the darknet or torrents is called piracy for a reason. When you take something, a pirated book, for which you have not paid that is theft. You cannot pretend that you are borrowing it or checking it out or giving it to a single friend.

You will note that in my original posts I flat out said that someone who cannot afford books should borrow them from a library, participate in a book exchange, go to a used book store, and a fair number of other options. The author does not get paid for them (other then the library) but the paper book is limited in its distribution and these options are deemed legal. Maybe not popular with the Authors but legal.

Downloading an e-book from a torrent site is not the same. Your downloading does not mean someone else has to wait for it to be returned or emailed to them to read it. Someone else can go and download that e-book. The book is never out of circulation, there are no limits. Piracy is illegal. I can see cases where people participate on a very limited basis because there is no option (the e-book is not available and the person owns the paper version even though technically you could just go without). Downloading pirated e-books and justifying that behavior with "I can't afford to buy them" is not on my list (and yes I know that list is highly subjective and people say that I am in the wrong with my limited reasons) of acceptable reasons.

If you cannot afford the e-book use the legitimate means available to read. Yes, that might mean reading paper books but so what? Buy the e-books when you can afford them. Hopefully that will be soon but depriving authors of their income because you are choosing to steal their work and not using legitimate means for reading is wrong.

[sbroome]

Originally Posted by Joykins

Becoming a blog reviewer to get free copies is a ton of work. Not just in the reviewing, but publicizing the blog to the extent that you have the number of hits that makes publishers/authors find it worth their while.

Yeah it sucks when you put a ton of work into something and then the return on your investment is so small.. unless you're a creator in which case you should feel honored.

[Joykins]

Originally Posted by sbroome

Yeah it sucks when you put a ton of work into something and then the return on your investment is so small.. unless you're a creator in which case you should feel honored.

Don't get me wrong...I *really* enjoy reviewing books--on my own terms. If I want to take months off, or split off into a new genre, I can. If I want to do reviews exclusively as obscene limericks, I can. But I'm not doing it for free books. It's my hobby, not my job.

ETA: I was doing the reviews anyway, on an online book journal shared with a few friends who suggested the blog. As of this point, I get a steady but low number of page views, some from said friends, a few from google, and a few that appear to be linked from my comments on other review blogs. Strangely, outside said friends, the largest group of commenters have been authors who happened (or googled) upon the good reviews of their books.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by Joykins

Becoming a blog reviewer to get free copies is a ton of work. Not just in the reviewing, but publicizing the blog to the extent that you have the number of hits that makes publishers/authors find it worth their while.

I got 3 free books that way (out of HUNDREDS of reviews published between the blog and goodreads) and honestly, they were not very good books, not worth the effort at all. Imagine forcing yourself to read a book you can't stand because you've promised to review it, and then delivering a bad review. No one's happy, not even you, unless the pleasure of writing the scathing review makes up for it.

Libraries, freebies/deals, and lending are great resources that I fully exploit because my book budget has shrunk.

Yes, yes reviewing is a ton of work. I've done it both for a pro review site and on my own. So is writing a book. Having done both, I promise you, writing a book takes longer and is more work.

[xg4bx]

Originally Posted by sbroome

How many books did you read for free and not pay for because you didn't like them? Did the authors agree to allow you to read the books for free or did they ask you to pay for them? If we can't do something as simple as respecting author's wishes, the least you can do is stop acting like some kind of champion.

honestly, not many. if i didn't have an inkling of interest in the 1st place i wouldn't even download it. i think i probably have a 70% or so buy rate for books i sample. most of my downloads are simply format shifts, i'll be damned if i'm paying $15 for a file of 1s and 0s of a book thats already sitting on my shelf.

and i'm not trying to sound like a "champion". i'm just trying to stamp out the perception that pirates are sitting there cackling and doing the money squeeze as they watch their hard drive fill. sadly many are, but i'm not. but for me personally an author got plenty of my money that he otherwise wouldn't have seen if i hadn't downloaded one of his books. he gained a paying customer for life.

pardon my french but if there wasn't so much absolute shite put up for sale i wouldn't need to be so wary. many books i've seen have a good sample but the actual book falls apart later on. its not a justification but if authors want my money i expect their book to be worth my time and money on a technical level at the very least. if they want me to uphold my end, they need to do their part and not release their every garbled brain fart. why should i pay for junk?

i don't have to try to justify myself but i did. i could just sit here and say "yea i love pirating stuff, screwing people out of money gives me sexual release" but i'm not that kind of person and neither are many of the folks i've talked to on pirate boards. most are simply people who enjoy reading and have their various reasons for why they do what they do, just like this board.

there was a topic on a darknet board i visit that asked "would you buy your ebooks if they were cheaper?" out of 100 responses the overwhelming majority answered yes. the reasoning? many folks simply can't afford to take risks or are unwilling to pay outrageous prices to format shift.

i think theres a perception that pirates are kids in their teens or early 20s wearing backwards caps as they guzzle red bull and laugh at "the man". many of the ebook "pirates" are older folks and seniors for whom taking a risk would be a financial burden or seniors who love to read but are on a fixed income. they're not giggling as they thrust their middle fingers at the publishing gods. one may say "well, use the library". well if theres a library out there who carries indie and small press books i'd love to see it.

even with my swashbuckling antics i know i have done more to support authors and the industry than the vast majority of legitimate book customers out there. whats the average amount of books bought/read each year, 10 or so? i spend thousands on legal, legitimate books each year, the bulk of that going to support indies and small presses. yea, i'm technically doing something wrong by downloading. morally i simply don't feel it.

[sbroome]

Originally Posted by xg4bx

and i'm not trying to sound like a "champion". i'm just trying to stamp out the perception that pirates are sitting there cackling and doing the money squeeze as they watch their hard drive fill. sadly many are, but i'm not. but for me personally an author got plenty of my money that he otherwise wouldn't have seen if i hadn't downloaded one of his books. he gained a paying customer for life.

pardon my french but if there wasn't so much absolute shite put up for sale i wouldn't need to be so wary. many books i've seen have a good sample but the actual book falls apart later on. its not a justification but if authors want my money i expect their book to be worth my time and money on a technical level at the very least. if they want me to uphold my end, they need to do their part and not release their every garbled brain fart. why should i pay for junk?

I respect those of you who are big samplers and still go out and make your purchases. I think that's perfectly reasonable, you're just tired of getting screwed. Years ago I changed my music buying habits precisely because I was tired of paying 17 bucks for CDs that turned out to be terrible, and my music buying went back to hard bop and pre-2000 hip hop because I had so much more confidence in the product. If more people who pirate acted the way you do I'd have zero problem with it, but as you say the reality is they don't. While I realize SOPA is not the answer, with an entire group of people so unwilling to change their habits, what's the better solution?

Tangentially this reminds me of some of my friends involved in the Occupy Oakland movement. A bunch of anarchists infiltrated their marches and previously the Oscar Grant protests. They don't want to set rules to govern their own behavior, but when some of their own act in a lousy way, they thus have NO solution to corral them. When you brag about an area with no rules (the open seas as you call it) don't get mad when the country whose ships your friends keep robbing resorts to ridiculous methods to stop you.

[Ninjalawyer]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

Please. downloading books from the darknet or torrents is called piracy for a reason.

Hyperbole?

You seem to be operating under the assumption that if copyright infringement isn't theft, then it's automatically good and proper. But really, you're just analogizing "theft" and "copyright infringement" and claiming they're equivalent concepts because they have some of the same features.

I don't really think anyone is saying that "copyright infringement isn't theft, so that makes it okay". I think what people are actually saying is "the word "theft" doesn't mean the same thing as the words "copyright infringement", and I'm not saying anything about the rightness or wrongness of copyright infringement."

The TL;DR version - Words have different meanings, and that's okay.

To breakdown your argument to its bare essentials:

[Joykins]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Yes, yes reviewing is a ton of work. I've done it both for a pro review site and on my own. So is writing a book. Having done both, I promise you, writing a book takes longer and is more work.

I reviewed 507 books in a year...I've cut back. I was starting to feel like a grouchy, overcritical Harriet Klausner.

40 pages per work (max) seems to be my limit. I have a great deal of admiration for anyone who finishes a novel-length work; I haven't done it to date. On the other hand, I seem to be one of those people with a knack for short-shorts, which I wouldn't dare sell individually.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by Joykins

I reviewed 507 books in a year...I've cut back. I was starting to feel like a grouchy, overcritical Harriet Klausner.

40 pages per work (max) seems to be my limit. I have a great deal of admiration for anyone who finishes a novel-length work; I haven't done it to date. On the other hand, I seem to be one of those people with a knack for short-shorts, which I wouldn't dare sell individually.

I know what you mean. I stopped reviewing for the pro site because I could not bear to force myself through another book I didn't like. I was turning into something a lot more lethal than a grouchy Klausner!!!

Nothing wrong with writing shorts; there's a smaller market for them, but it takes a lot of talent to tell a story in a short space. And a novel is really just a lot of short stories strung together with a few arcs tying the pieces together. Well, in simplified logic. Sometimes I have to tell myself that a novel is just one word strung after another word to get myself to write full sentences for the day!!!

[Joykins]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

I know what you mean. I stopped reviewing for the pro site because I could not bear to force myself through another book I didn't like. I was turning into something a lot more lethal than a grouchy Klausner!!!

Nothing wrong with writing shorts; there's a smaller market for them, but it takes a lot of talent to tell a story in a short space. And a novel is really just a lot of short stories strung together with a few arcs tying the pieces together. Well, in simplified logic. Sometimes I have to tell myself that a novel is just one word strung after another word to get myself to write full sentences for the day!!!

I have something in process and this time, I keep telling myself, this time I will finish at least a novella...