The Vent and Rant Thread

[CRussel]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I don't actually know! I can't tell you how long it's been since the last time I was in a zoo. But...a lot of decades. More than I want to admit to.

Hitch'

I do not go to zoos. A conscious decision. I've seen many of these animals (including 7 or 8 different varieties of penguin) in the wild, in their natural habitat. That's how I choose to remember them.

[Blossom]

Originally Posted by silverraven

Me too!! I was going through a couple bags of ice a week. I saved my pennies and bought a counter top ice maker. I love it! Makes little bullet shaped ice pellets and they are perfect for crunching. Nice and soft. It was about $100, which is a lot, but when I added up the cost of bags of ice it won't take long to pay for itself. But ice is expensive here, might be way cheaper in other areas.
S

I pay about about a buck for a bag. Our fast food places sell them. If I had a counter top maker I'd still be paying about the same for the water to make it on top of the cost for the machine.

Sonic has bullet ice but I get from Steak n Shake most of the time. They have two kinds and you can't pick. Thin squares and small cubes. I'd even had this one kid give me a bag free. He shrugged and said it's just ice. lol I find the bullet ice from Sonic melts together and becomes a solid block so I stick with the other kind. Captain D's also sells ice. McDonald's has yet to catch on.

Sent from my XT1528

[Blossom]

Originally Posted by silverraven

For me (and everyone is different) ice needs to be a certain consistency to chew. Just making cubes in the freezer doesn't cut it for me. They are too large and too hard. Bagged ice is 'softer", I guess you would say. They crumble as you bite down on them. It's a mouth feel thing for me.
Apparently Sonic makes amazing chewing ice. The company that the ice machine for the restaurant has actually come out with a home model. It was more pennies than I could afford though! The one I got isn't bad though. As long as I'm eating the ice out of the machine it's a nice soft ice. If I collect it and put it in my freezer then I need to leave it sitting out in a cup for about 10 minutes to let it soften back up.
Yup, I'm weird! Actually, ice chewing is a symptom of anemia. I do eat plenty of beef, but I can't take iron tablets or liquid. It just makes my stomach sooo sick. So chewable ice it is!
S

Same here. I'm anemic. Home made ice is just eew. It taste terrible because it freezes all those chemicals. To get clear ice you can chew you need a special equipment and purified bottled water. We don't drink our water because it's nasty. We get bottle. I only go through a bag a week though. My ice must have liquid with it. I use soda or tea. It softens it right up.

Sent from my XT1528

[Deskisamess]

To get clear ice you can chew you need a special equipment and purified bottled water.

We are spoiled here. We live in an area with extremely hard city water. Having a softener is almost a must...but softened water tastes horrible. Years ago, we were given a Reverse Osmosis unit by an Aunt who had purchased one for herself. So we've had good water for drinking, ice, cooking, etc. since 1996 or so.

When we travel to visit kids etc. we have to buy gallons of good water. I can't even boil pasta or potatoes in our tap water, I can't stand the taste.

We have the RO unit hooked up to our freezer ice maker and fridge water dispenser, and a tap on our sink as well

Maintenance on the RO unit isn't bad...new filters every 6 months, and we take the tank in once a year to have it sanitized and re-pressurized.

I can't chew ice...it kills my teeth, and isn't good for them either according to my dentist. Hubby chews ice sometimes, but he likes smoothies too. I can't stand them.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

You did, but I don't. I don't normally place bets, let alone accept them.

(Doing the latter would likely be stepping on someone's toes, and they would object violently.)

I'm pretty sure that they knew I was joking, my friend. ;-)

And the Internet enables it.

It doesn't just enable it--it encourages it. Rude behavior has now replaced any pretense at listening to someone, because, god forbid, you might learn something or hear something that doesn't jive with your beliefs. We all see how the unintended consequence of that behavior is playing out at universities, unfortunately.

I had conversation with a friend a few years ago. She was a former executive editor at a trade publisher who is now a full time writer, and we were discussing the state of publishing and the misconceptions surrounding it (like how cheaply a book can be priced.)

Don't get me started on that one. If one more person says "you shouldn't charge to make EDITS! It only takes one minute to open a file and make a change," I may go down for murder.

She said "The problem is, we're smart, and we surround ourselves with other people who are smart, so we're insulated. We don't realize that an awful lot of people out there aren't smart until we have to deal with them."

I used to say this (more or less) to my associates--that we were all spoiled. That we'd been very lucky, that all the people we dealt with, building hotels, etc., were incredibly smart and good at what they do. That our entire "universe" was populated with top performers and so forth. That the flipside to that is--you're ill-prepared for reality, when it hits.

She's spot on. I've lost track of the number of things that are glaringly obvious to me that elude some folks I deal with. In some cases, it's a matter of not wanting to get it, because the concept is one that flies against their preconceptions and they don't want to believe it. In others, they simply can't get it. They just aren't bright enough to grasp the notion.

Both types seem to emerge from the woodwork where self-publishing is concerned.
______
Dennis

Yes, that's true, in self-pubbing, I suspect largely due to the whole 'dream' thing. Right? Everybody wants to be the next Dan Brown, the next Stephenie Meyer, etc. And, bygod, their novel is IT. It's the next brilliant as-yet undiscovered masterpiece, and as soon as people just READ it, the sooner that rocketship to superstardom will depart.

But it's also true everywhere else. It's not just publishing, where people increasingly cherry-pick what information they want to hear/see. It's everything. The advent of the Net has made it VERY easy to live in an echo chamber. Where you surround yourself with people who Think Just Like You. People who won't tell you that you're wrong that the Illuminati are taking over the New Jersey Garbage Business, because they're putting special chemicals in the trash cans, that get on your hands and then into your brains. Or whatever. It doesn't even have to be far out. It's just easy, isn't it? Stick at the forums where everybody knows your name, and supports what you believe, reinforces the idea that you're right, in your beliefs....it's a seduction. Like any other type of addiction, it feeds the brain chemistry that is hard to defeat with cold hard facts.

There is some kind of study--and no, I don't know where it is, now--that belief and beliefs can actually act like chemical agents on the brain. That the act of belief can cause the release of certain brain chemicals/hormones/whatever that make you feel good, like drugs. And while the study in question was addressing religious belief, what's the difference? I mean, if you believe in some type of conspiracy, and you surround yourself with other Troos, what's the diff between that and some specific religious belief? Nothing, brain-chemistry wise.

Just...think about that for a moment. The idea that finding people who agree with us, who support our belief system, is potentially addictive. How easy it is, to find those people, on the Net, and invest in staying with them. And how that would affect the behavior of people "in real life" as they say, especially over a long period of time, over large swaths of population.



Hitch (who finds it all a bit worrisome...)

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I'm pretty sure that they knew I was joking, my friend. ;-)

I do too, but I've found it best to be very clear about such things.

It doesn't just enable it--it encourages it. Rude behavior has now replaced any pretense at listening to someone, because, god forbid, you might learn something or hear something that doesn't jive with your beliefs. We all see how the unintended consequence of that behavior is playing out at universities, unfortunately.

Yes, we are. One recent volume I've seen worries that free speech is endangered, because the society we live in increasingly worries about giving offense, and anything that might upset someone else simply should not be said.

Don't get me started on that one. If one more person says "you shouldn't charge to make EDITS! It only takes one minute to open a file and make a change," I may go down for murder.

All you can say is "I charge for my time. If it takes time, I charge for it. Edits take time. If you don't want to be charged for them properly proof your manuscript before sending it to me so I don't have to make edits."

I used to say this (more or less) to my associates--that we were all spoiled. That we'd been very lucky, that all the people we dealt with, building hotels, etc., were incredibly smart and good at what they do. That our entire "universe" was populated with top performers and so forth. That the flipside to that is--you're ill-prepared for reality, when it hits.

I wasn't, and I too was largely insulated. There's a difference between understanding that some folks aren't very bright, and dealing with them when you encounter them.

Yes, that's true, in self-pubbing, I suspect largely due to the whole 'dream' thing. Right? Everybody wants to be the next Dan Brown, the next Stephenie Meyer, etc. And, bygod, their novel is IT. It's the next brilliant as-yet undiscovered masterpiece, and as soon as people just READ it, the sooner that rocketship to superstardom will depart.

I'd back off a step. The folks I interact with assume they can make a living writing and self publishing, with no international best seller superstardom assumed. Getting across that without a $DEITY granted miracle, they [i]can['t], and don't give up their day job is an uphill slog I increasingly don't try to make.

But it's also true everywhere else. It's not just publishing, where people increasingly cherry-pick what information they want to hear/see. It's everything. The advent of the Net has made it VERY easy to live in an echo chamber. Where you surround yourself with people who Think Just Like You. People who won't tell you that you're wrong that the Illuminati are taking over the New Jersey Garbage Business, because they're putting special chemicals in the trash cans, that get on your hands and then into your brains. Or whatever. It doesn't even have to be far out. It's just easy, isn't it? Stick at the forums where everybody knows your name, and supports what you believe, reinforces the idea that you're right, in your beliefs....it's a seduction. Like any other type of addiction, it feeds the brain chemistry that is hard to defeat with cold hard facts.

Yes, and there has been a fair bit of informed commentary and concern about it.

We all want to be surrounded by People Like Us, and the Internet and helpful algorithms make it easier and easier to find People Like Us to be surrounded by. We become increasingly balkanized in consequence. I don't care what you believe. You can find a website out there devoted to it that will reassure you you are correct, and you can say "It's true! I read it on the Internet!"

It's a technological expansion of what was already happening in print. Whatever your view, you could find things like newspapers that supported you. And stuff in print acquired a special level of authority, simple because it was in print.

There is some kind of study--and no, I don't know where it is, now--that belief and beliefs can actually act like chemical agents on the brain. That the act of belief can cause the release of certain brain chemicals/hormones/whatever that make you feel good, like drugs. And while the study in question was addressing religious belief, what's the difference? I mean, if you believe in some type of conspiracy, and you surround yourself with other Troos, what's the diff between that and some specific religious belief? Nothing, brain-chemistry wise.

Programming forums have the concept of Religious Arguments. There are topics that are matters of gut level belief, which are not amenable to rational argument. The stuff lives on a non-rational level. In programming forums, there is at least the understanding that the underlying beliefs are non-rational, and arguing about them in the forums is a waste of everyone's time.

That extends to all manner of things, and politics is also a matter of non-rational beliefs.

One of the formative books for me was the late Eric Berne's Games People Play, which was a pop pysch bestseller in the 60's. Berne was a psychiatrist and founder of the discipline of transactional analysis. In retrospect, the best seller status was startling, because it wasn't written as pop psych. It was a technical tome aimed at other psychiatrists.

One of Berne's insights was that we all start from a Position. The Position is an unconscious, existential notion of "This is who I am, and this is how I fit into my society." The Position is inculcated early, absorbed by osmosis beginning in early childhood from the adults around us, and is adopted in basic form between the ages of 5 - 7 years old. Once we have adopted a Position, our chief goal is to defend it. We clutch to our chest evidence that supports what we believe, and ignore or reject evidence that doesn't. The Position becomes part of our "sense of self".

Positions somewhat in-congruent with reality produce behave we consider neurotic. Positions really in-congruent with reality produce behave we call psychotic. And the way the Position embeds can make the practice of psychiatry physically dangerous for the psychiatrist, because the practice of psychiatry is in part making those unconscious assumptions conscious, where they can be examined and modified. For some folks, questions of the Position are seen as attacks on their person, and produce a violent response.

I see a lot of this sort of thing, though fortunately not the violent responses. I spend a fair bit of time in online conversations trying to determine precisely what people's Positions are. "I know what you believe. I'm trying to understand why you believe it, and what makes it attractive to you."

Just...think about that for a moment. The idea that finding people who agree with us, who support our belief system, is potentially addictive. How easy it is, to find those people, on the Net, and invest in staying with them. And how that would affect the behavior of people "in real life" as they say, especially over a long period of time, over large swaths of population.

See above about balkanization.

Hitch (who finds it all a bit worrisome...)

I find it very worrisome.
______
Dennis

[ApK]

I think you guys are venturing closer to p&r territory than you may realize. Some of the things you say you find worrisome, I find necessary for civilized society.

[Blossom]

Originally Posted by Deskisamess

We are spoiled here. We live in an area with extremely hard city water. Having a softener is almost a must...but softened water tastes horrible. Years ago, we were given a Reverse Osmosis unit by an Aunt who had purchased one for herself. So we've had good water for drinking, ice, cooking, etc. since 1996 or so.

When we travel to visit kids etc. we have to buy gallons of good water. I can't even boil pasta or potatoes in our tap water, I can't stand the taste.

We have the RO unit hooked up to our freezer ice maker and fridge water dispenser, and a tap on our sink as well

Maintenance on the RO unit isn't bad...new filters every 6 months, and we take the tank in once a year to have it sanitized and re-pressurized.

I can't chew ice...it kills my teeth, and isn't good for them either according to my dentist. Hubby chews ice sometimes, but he likes smoothies too. I can't stand them.

It's an anemic thing. Look up PICA. For us who are anemic it really helps. There's nothing wrong chewing soft ice. It's like anything else you chew but you don't get cavities. Hard ice could hurt your teeth. The ice that fast food makes is soft, melts quickly.

Sent from my XT1528

[Cinisajoy]

Hitch and Dennis,
Your latest post reminds me of an incident that happened about 20 years ago. I was in a club and was asked/begged/coerced into joining the lounge singer and another woman on stage. (Note: I had just had two wisdom teeth pulled.) I did join them for one song. The guy in charge of the entertainment promptly offered me the job. I never did figure out if I was that good or the other two were bad.
Oh wait two weeks later, the lounge singer lost her job and left her boyfriend.
Private club and in the meeting, some people were complaining. I asked the logical question, is she making the club any money? Answer was no, people are actually staying away. My next comment led to jaw drops and the person next to me about fell over laughing.
All I said was just because she is dating my dad, doesn't mean you have to pay her.
They did decide I had a point and told her she was no longer needed.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Oh wait two weeks later, the lounge singer lost her job and left her boyfriend.
Private club and in the meeting, some people were complaining. I asked the logical question, is she making the club any money? Answer was no, people are actually staying away. My next comment led to jaw drops and the person next to me about fell over laughing.
All I said was just because she is dating my dad, doesn't mean you have to pay her.
They did decide I had a point and told her she was no longer needed.

There was a story years back about the late Frank Zappa watching Alice Cooper totally a clear a club on an early gig. Zappa decided someone who could cause an entire club to empty had something, and offered Alice a contract on his Bizarre records label. The rest, as they say, was history.
______
Dennis

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

She said "The problem is, we're smart, and we surround ourselves with other people who are smart, so we're insulated. We don't realize that an awful lot of people out there aren't smart until we have to deal with them."

She's spot on. I've lost track of the number of things that are glaringly obvious to me that elude some folks I deal with. In some cases, it's a matter of not wanting to get it, because the concept is one that flies against their preconceptions and they don't want to believe it. In others, they simply can't get it. They just aren't bright enough to grasp the notion.

Do you know this quote?

Have you ever noticed how stupid the average person is?
Now imagine... half of them are stupider.

===

In my own case, I've noticed two opposing trends.

1. If someone tells me he's going to do X, I sometimes respond with: "It doesn't work." Then, when asked WHY it doesn't work, I can't fully explain it because I've raced through most, if not all possibilities in a fraction of a second and came to the conclusion that X doesn't work, but without many of the intermediate steps. Then it takes me quite some time to explain my entire TGV of thought, and people lose me somewhere down the road.

Their conclusion: I'm a party pooper who always sees only the problems.
End of story most of the time: X doesn't work, exactly because of the reason I was unable to explain quickly.

2. Something is so extremely glaringly obvious and easy to understand that even my six year old niece gets it, and I go "Oh... right" 3 minutes later. Sometimes, I feel like Data, who gets a joke like 6 years after it's made (when he got his emotion chip), or makes a joke and doesn't understand why it's funny (Guinan: "The joke didn't work because your timing was wrong." Data: "My timing is digital.")

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Do you know this quote?

Have you ever noticed how stupid the average person is?
Now imagine... half of them are stupider.

In the US, that quote is attributed to comedian George Carlin.

In my own case, I've noticed two opposing trends.

1. If someone tells me he's going to do X, I sometimes respond with: "It doesn't work." Then, when asked WHY it doesn't work, I can't fully explain it because I've raced through most, if not all possibilities in a fraction of a second and came to the conclusion that X doesn't work, but without many of the intermediate steps. Then it takes me quite some time to explain my entire TGV of thought, and people lose me somewhere down the road.

A lot of that comes down to how you perceive the world.

We make a mental model of the world around us, based on what we perceive through our senses. But while we have a number (13, the last I looked, though some of those are concerned with our internal state), we generally have one that is our primary sense, and which that is affects how we perceive the world.

My primary sense is visual. I see patterns. In many cases, my "It won't work" response is because the pieces simply don't fit together in my model. I can usually reproduce the chain of thought embodied in that gestalt, but explaining it may depend on the primary senses of those I'm explaining it to.

My SO, for example, is extremely nearsighted, and needs prescription glasses to see anything a foot beyond her face. (I'm increasingly far sighted, and need reading glasses.) Her primary sense is hearing. When she asks a technical question, my impulse is to grab pencil and paper and draw a diagram, but that will convey nothing to her. I need to find a different metaphor to get across the concept.

Their conclusion: I'm a party pooper who always sees only the problems.
End of story most of the time: X doesn't work, exactly because of the reason I was unable to explain quickly.

And they discover it the hard way. The question is whether anyone has gotten back to you after the fact and said "You were right."

2. Something is so extremely glaringly obvious and easy to understand that even my six year old niece gets it, and I go "Oh... right" 3 minutes later. Sometimes, I feel like Data, who gets a joke like 6 years after it's made (when he got his emotion chip), or makes a joke and doesn't understand why it's funny (Guinan: "The joke didn't work because your timing was wrong." Data: "My timing is digital.")

See above about sensory frameworks and modes of perception. What we find glaringly obvious will differ depending upon who we are.

One of the characteristics I subsume under the concept of "intelligence" is the ability to foresee likely future outcomes of present actions. A lot of my "It Won't Work" opinions are based on considering what is likely to happen as a result of something being done now, and concluding the result will not be what the people doing it expect or want.

But those are where a lot of "Don't want to believe something" responses get triggered. There are any number of cases where I just keep my mouth shut, because opening it would require saying "Everything you think you know is wrong. The world simply doesn't work the way you assume, and never has."

If I'm going to waste time, I want how I waste it to be fun, and having that sort of discussion isn't.
______
Dennis

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

In the US, that quote is attributed to comedian George Carlin.


A lot of that comes down to how you perceive the world.

We make a mental model of the world around us, based on what we perceive through our senses. But while we have a number (13, the last I looked, though some of those are concerned with our internal state), we generally have one that is our primary sense, and which that is affects how we perceive the world.

My primary sense is visual. I see patterns. In many cases, my "It won't work" response is because the pieces simply don't fit together in my model. I can usually reproduce the chain of thought embodied in that gestalt, but explaining it may depend on the primary senses of those I'm explaining it to.

My SO, for example, is extremely nearsighted, and needs prescription glasses to see anything a foot beyond her face. (I'm increasingly far sighted, and need reading glasses.) Her primary sense is hearing. When she asks a technical question, my impulse is to grab pencil and paper and draw a diagram, but that will convey nothing to her. I need to find a different metaphor to get across the concept.


And they discover it the hard way. The question is whether anyone has gotten back to you after the fact and said "You were right."


See above about sensory frameworks and modes of perception. What we find glaringly obvious will differ depending upon who we are.

One of the characteristics I subsume under the concept of "intelligence" is the ability to foresee likely future outcomes of present actions. A lot of my "It Won't Work" opinions are based on considering what is likely to happen as a result of something being done now, and concluding the result will not be what the people doing it expect or want.

But those are where a lot of "Don't want to believe something" responses get triggered. There are any number of cases where I just keep my mouth shut, because opening it would require saying "Everything you think you know is wrong. The world simply doesn't work the way you assume, and never has."

If I'm going to waste time, I want how I waste it to be fun, and having that sort of discussion isn't.
______
Dennis

Perception is everything. I have been called smart a few times but I always think no not really. When I was working at a college, my boss commented one time that I was really smart. I had to comment back, no I am the dumb one in the family. Dad was valedictorian, mom could have been, my little brother has been a certified genius since he was 9 or 10. So yeah, not the smart one. Not dumb or stupid but in comparison to who I knew not smart either.
Another time at college, I put my foot in my mouth because I didn't know something.
I was having trouble explaining an algebra problem to one of my students (I was a math tutor. ) I decided to go find help. Well the physics professor saw me and asked if he could help. Brilliant me said I don't think so since this is algebra. He didn't laugh out loud but told me that physics was based on algebra and yes he could help me.
He did later tell every professor in his department about my comment.
When I asked another professor if they would tease a normal student about not knowing something, the answer was no, but it was a shock to them that I didn't know something.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

In the US, that quote is attributed to comedian George Carlin.

I love Carlin. Pity he's dead.

A lot of that comes down to how you perceive the world.

We make a mental model of the world around us, based on what we perceive through our senses. But while we have a number (13, the last I looked, though some of those are concerned with our internal state), we generally have one that is our primary sense, and which that is affects how we perceive the world.

My primary sense is visual. I see patterns. In many cases, my "It won't work" response is because the pieces simply don't fit together in my model. I can usually reproduce the chain of thought embodied in that gestalt, but explaining it may depend on the primary senses of those I'm explaining it to.

My SO, for example, is extremely nearsighted, and needs prescription glasses to see anything a foot beyond her face. (I'm increasingly far sighted, and need reading glasses.) Her primary sense is hearing. When she asks a technical question, my impulse is to grab pencil and paper and draw a diagram, but that will convey nothing to her. I need to find a different metaphor to get across the concept.

Same; I'm extremely nearsighted as well.

My primary sense is hearing, but I am very visual with regard to thinking. I think in images and diagrams. If somebody says "I'm going to do X", I see a diagram 'in my head', in the same way I see a description of a written scene in my head as well. (That's why, sometimes, a movie based on a book can be extremely jarring to me, because stuff doesn't look like it's 'supposed to.')

And they discover it the hard way. The question is whether anyone has gotten back to you after the fact and said "You were right."

Never. Worse, they keep making the same mistakes. In the past, people sometimes 'forgot' to ask me for my input because of it. Then later, when I discovered it (for example, while reading code), I had to go to them to tell them they had forgotten a few edge cases.

"It's you again?!"
- "Yeah. Something's not working. Open the (web)application on the target system. I'll show you."
*sigh*, *splutter*
- "Open it."
"OK, OK."
- "tap, tap, tap... enter..."
*CRASH*
"But it works on my computer!" *shows*
- "That's Windows. You need to take into account that the Linux file system is case sensitive. You also need to take into account that Linux uses / instead of \ to separate folders. And..."
*grumble.... grumble...*

If they had asked my input, I'd have advised to use (part of a) framework, or a library, that takes stuff like this into account, instead of writing in bare code. (If something like that exists; and mostly, it does.)

Some people, especially the ones younger than you, detest the fact that you actually KNOW shit, because you've seen it before, or because the education (mine) was Computer Science / Software Engineering, not "writing stuff in C# for 4 years."

Many programmers / software engineers I encounter nowadays are basically C# coders who don't know jack shit about computers or operating systems (or anything beyond C#, PHP, Java, and so on).

That isn't because they're stupid, but because many universities have scrapped it as 'not necessary anymore.' So, if these people end up writing embedded software (outside the realm of C#), they fail.

Instead of being annoyed with me, it would be better to learn from it. I've been around computers since 1990 (starting out on a 1982 XT, that was already 8 years old back then), so I grew up with writing bare code. I *know* about stuff like that, and how to avoid many pitfalls.

On the other hand, I sometimes need to do things on the web or in C#, but I don't know if there are libraries or stuff to help doing it, so I ask around before I start to write bare code. Even then, I sometimes do things that weren't necessary or could have been done better, and when someone points them out to me (because they've been writing in C# since college) I say:

"Thanks for saving me a bunch of work next time. I'll replace the functions with these libraries" instead of "It's you again?!".

But those are where a lot of "Don't want to believe something" responses get triggered. There are any number of cases where I just keep my mouth shut, because opening it would require saying "Everything you think you know is wrong. The world simply doesn't work the way you assume, and never has."

LOL. Some weeks ago, there was a convention in the Netherlands, where hundreds of people turned up. It actually was on the news. Things that were discussed there:

- The world isn't round. It's flat.
- Elvis is still alive.
- Hitler lived up to at least 1975.
- The Titanic didn't sink and was in service until at least 1945.
- The earth warming up and sea levels rising is a hoax.
- And so on...

One of the guys there says that "95% of things we are taught are wrong, and are propagated by the elite."

In short, it's a convention of people who believe in conspiracies. While I'm skeptical enough and don't instantly believe anything I get told, these guys are over the top... such as, European leaders and the US starting wars in the Middle East to make people flee to Europe to replace the population here. What? On purpose? A planned wipe-out of the European pupulation? That's going a bit far.

[issybird]

Two points:

Could we keep it a little more venty and ranty, please? A new thread can always be started for longer discussions.

Please be scrupulous about avoiding political commentary. You know the rules. Seriously, there's a reason why people don't opt into P&R and they shouldn't have to read even mildly political statements in the Lounge.