Seriously thoughtful The NEW Covid Vaccination Poll

[meeera]

Originally Posted by haertig

If you have a compromised immune system, EVERYTHING is highly contagious. Even things that do not affect the general population at all.

Immunocompromise/immunosuppression is not one universal identical thing - it varies in both quality/type and quantity/degree. And yes, I'm well on board (as an immunosuppressed person who doesn't have a completely absent immune system) with the whole population taking a few basic steps to reduce the risk to more medically vulnerable people. Steps that will also reduce their own, lesser but not nonexistent risk. Those basic steps are things like keeping your germs to yourself when you're experiencing symptoms of an infectious disease (i.e. staying the hell home), getting all scheduled vaccinations unless you have a genuine medical reason not to, and using basic hygiene.

I get that some people are violently against doing anything at all that might protect others, preferring instead to take the "every person for themself" side of things. I just don't agree with them.

COVID-19 is a special case right now, as unlike most other diseases it is currently circulating absolutely rampantly in some populations. I'm not worried about, say, measles right now, partly because I'm fully vaccinated (while this may be sub-effective it's unlikely to be completely ineffective); and partly because so much of the population is vaccinated that it's not really a reasonable everyday concern where I live - we're above the herd immunity threshold. (And because we have good public health and contact tracing here that those cases that are imported are generally tracked down fairly quickly). But if I were in certain parts of the world, COVID would be a major everyday concern. COVID is a special case right now and just hand-waving about how anything could kill you so why focus on COVID is really not a great argument. The USA specifically is not gonna get to herd immunity any time soon. (Neither is Australia, with our bungled vaccine rollout, but our quarantine and contact tracing is close to top notch, which is great.)

Bear in mind, as an aside, that you don't actually need to be immunosuppressed or immunocompromised to die of COVID, or a staph infection, or a enteroviral encephalitis, or influenza, or etc. You just have to be unlucky.

[poohbear_nc]

A positive morning. I did my usual early morning grocery run - everyone (customers and employees) still masked and distancing.

[astrangerhere]

Originally Posted by poohbear_nc

A positive morning. I did my usual early morning grocery run - everyone (customers and employees) still masked and distancing.

Yeah, I am really glad Harris Teeter is still requiring them here.

[4691mls]

Great post Meera.
I am vaccinated and don't have any immunity issues. I don't enjoy wearing a mask, but if having everyone continue to wear masks when out in public until a higher percentage are vaccinated would help the vulnerable, then yes I am am willing to continue wearing a mask.

I am fortunate to work in a very small office where everyone is fully vaccinated.

The drug and grocery stores I've shopped at in the past few days still had mask signs up and people were still wearing them, but each day it seems more chains are dropping the requirement so if I go back to those same stores a few days later, who knows....

[meeera]

Originally Posted by 4691mls

Great post Meera.
I am vaccinated and don't have any immunity issues. I don't enjoy wearing a mask, but if having everyone continue to wear masks when out in public until a higher percentage are vaccinated would help the vulnerable, then yes I am am willing to continue wearing a mask. .

There are a variety of other issues - this is a broad and complex field. One thing that many people may not be aware of is that allowing immunosuppressed people to just get infected because *shrug*, "whaddya gonna do?", is exactly how you get some serious variants that may even threaten vaccinated people. Just as populations with rampant infections are a breeding zone for variants (some of which might be Variants of Concern), even single individuals who host a replicating COVID-19 infection for a long time because of their immunocompromise are thought to be a risk to giving rise to Variants of Concern.

For more, read this:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020...id-19-pandemic

It is in everyone's interest to keep immunocompromised people safe from COVID-19 infection.

[Gardenman]

Originally Posted by haertig

...spreading it to other anti-vaxxers. That works - it is apparently what both the spreader and the spreadee want. The vaccinated don't have to worry about what the anti-vaxxers do to each other. There may be an uptick in severe covid sickness and death among the anti-vaxxers, but we can handle that. It's one of the things you accept when you live in a country where people are free to make their own choices.

The vaccinated have to worry about the unvaccinated incubating Variants.

[haertig]

You make a good point about the USA not reaching herd immunity. I don't think we will either. There are too many people who have chosen not to take the vaccine. However, that is their right. We are rapidly approaching our maximum vaccination level, which I'm guessing will eventually come to about 2/3 of the population. I imagine that the yearly flu shot will now also include a yearly covid component. It may end up being two shots due to different storage requirements for the vaccines. This will be "the new normal" if what I'm imagining comes true. But as time goes on, the 1/3 that have chosen not to be vaccinated will not be the ones dictating how society runs. Masks will fall by the wayside. Limiting business capacity will go away. Bans on this or that type of group gathering will be history. Similar to how the flu season works. You never saw the general public wearing masks full time to protect those that chose not to get their flu shot. It will be the same for covid eventually.

I hated it in years past when I'd go in to work and some fool was sitting at their desk coughing and sneezing, evidently trying to prove how loyal they were to the company to come into work when they were sick. Usually I would just turn around and leave the office, going back home to work from there. I was lucky to have that path available to me, most people don't. If I was sick, I never would dream of going into the office. I'm thinking (hoping) that people who have done this drag yourself into work when you are sick stunt will reevaluate their behavior now that covid has taught us a few things.

[meeera]

Originally Posted by haertig

Similar to how the flu season works. You never saw the general public wearing masks full time to protect those that chose not to get their flu shot. It will be the same for covid eventually.

I've just spent a fair bit of time and effort explaining some of the reasons why vigorously reducing the spread of COVID is not just about protecting those that choose not to be vaccinated.

[4691mls]

Recently I've been hearing about Asian countries where it is the norm to wear a mask if you are sick, even if it's just a cold. It's considered rude not to wear a mask. I wish we could adopt that behavior worldwide.

[ownedbycats]

Originally Posted by haertig

You never saw the general public wearing masks full time to protect those that chose not to get their flu shot.

Maybe we should have been.

[haertig]

Originally Posted by meeera

I've just spent a fair bit of time and effort explaining some of the reasons why vigorously reducing the spread of COVID is not just about protecting those that choose not to be vaccinated.

Yes. Good points. And I was just pointing out that despite your explaining, people are not going to wear masks full time. So if the plan is to explain to people why they should wear masks full time, and then expect them to do so, I predict that the plan will fail. That's not a statement of support or disagreement with your plan. It's a statement of my observations of human behavior. In a way I guess it's a disagreement with your plan - I disagree because I don't think it will work, not disagree with it's goal. That doesn't mean that your plan is not a noble cause, just an unworkable one.

[ownedbycats]

Originally Posted by haertig

Yes. Good points. And I was just pointing out that despite your explaining, people are not going to wear masks full time. So if the plan is to explain to people why they should wear masks full time, and then expect them to do so, I predict that the plan will fail.

They seem to manage just fine during flu season in Japan.

[haertig]

Originally Posted by ownedbycats

They seem to manage just fine during flu season in Japan.

So they do. Nevertheless, my prediction is if you try to force this behavior on people, it will fail. It was starting to fail already here in the USA, and I think that was part of the CDC's decision to come out with new guidelines (along with medical studies, a incentive to get people to vaccinate, political pressure, and other reasons).

If you try to convince people to voluntarily wear masks indefinitely, that has a better chance than forcing them, but my prediction is that it will still fail. I also believe that this last year's trial of government forcing masks has done significant damage to any future attempts to ask for it voluntarily.

These are just my opinions/predictions of what will happen based on what I've seen of human behavior. You're free to have different opinions and predictions.

[Deskisamess]

From a 2018 article: https://gogonihon.com/en/blog/why-do...le-wear-masks/

With this many people packed into this small of an area, risk of contagion and disease is much higher. Japanese are taught the importance of prevention at an early age.

A recent 2011 poll by Japanese news site News Post Seven surveyed 100 people in Tokyo and learned that 30 percent of Japanese wear masks for reasons not having to do with sickness.

On a more personal note, some Japanese wear masks as a way to add a degree of separation between society and themselves. As a reserved culture that’s very conscious of the judgement of others, those who are shy and lacking in self-esteem sometimes wear masks to hide from the bustling world.

It is very much a cultural thing.

If you do some research, many sites point to seasonal allergies in that part of the world as the main reason for masks. Not because of illness.

[BetterRed]

Staying home when unwell is the best means of preventing the spread of disease.

Japan is no workers paradise, and its health system is not as good as one might imagine. One of the reasons the Japanese wear masks is because there is no such thing as paid sick leave, and taking a day off work is frowned upon, annual leave is miserly (10 days), it increases if you remain with the same employer - hence the salaryman.

I've lived and worked there.