Nemoptic says our e-paper is better than others

[RWood]

??grok?? I haven't heard that word used since high school -- ok, there was one person in college that used it but he always carried a hard back copy of "Stranger in a Strange Land" with him so I'm not sure that he counts.

[nekokami]

Speaking as a parent of two ESL kids (adopted from China), I have to agree. But I think if you can pull off a limerick with puns, it trumps both the lowest form of humor AND the highest use of language.

[kacir]

Originally Posted by RWood

??grok?? I haven't heard that word used since high school --

Well, have you ever heard about my favourite site caled groklaw?
http://www.groklaw.net

THE most influential blog in the entire IT history.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by RWood

??grok?? I haven't heard that word used since high school

I've seen others use it around here on a few occasions.

Originally Posted by nekokami

But I think if you can pull off a limerick with puns, it trumps both the lowest form of humor AND the highest use of language.

Okay, I guess I have to agree with that. You do realize that you've just given me a new Life Goal, don't you?

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by NatCh

You do realize that you've just given me a new Life Goal, don't you?

Happy to help!

Tangenting back toward the vague general direction of the original topic... I was browsing around at BBC news and found an interesting article about a kind of very white beetle being studied by scientists. Apparently its shell is a bright white, despite being quite thin, which is difficult to accomplish from a technical perspective. According to the article, the shell is composed of many small plates with "random 3D structure" to refract the light. I wonder if something like this could help improve the whiteness of the white microbeads in E Ink? I don't know if that's where the limits of the contrast of these screens are being hit, or if it's just a side effect of the liquid surrounding the microbeads, or both, or something else entirely. Thought it was an interesting idea, though.

More detail here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6272485.stm

[yvanleterrible]

I had the same thought you did when I saw that beetle on "Daily Planet" , a science show here. I think that to the opacity of tranport liquids surrounding the particles, we could add the covering plastics and the charging grid opacity.

[nekokami]

Yeah, that top electrode is supposedly "transparent," but it probably is contributing to the overall dimness of the screen. I also don't know if this method of producing whiteness would work so well in a liquid, which tends to "smooth out" the kinds of optical structures described in the article.

Maybe some kind of pigment that flouresces (converts other wavelengths, e.g. UV, to visible light) could help, but then again, I don't know how much UV might get through the screen.

In checking the E Ink page for info about where their electrodes are located, I noticed again that E Ink really seems to emphasize the flexibility of their displays. I wonder why all the applications we're seeing in eBook readers seem to be rigid?

[NatCh]

Most of the support electronics (i.e. circuit boards) are still necessarily rigid, so a flexible display is kinda limited by that for the present.

Personally, though, I'm not sure I'd want a display that can't stay flat -- if I can roll it up when it's not in use, but get it to be effectively planar when I'm using it that'd be excellent, but the floppiness of a newspaper or magazine is not a 'feature' I particularly value when I'm actually reading it. I don't even like it when my book pages aren't really flat for that matter.

[chuck94022]

Back to the French display under discussion...

I'd like to know two things about this particular technology, since it is based on LCD technology:

1. What is its performance under sunlight? E-Ink performance (contrast) improves as the light is brighter (the whites get whiter). Does the LCD technology used in this device improve with brighter light, or get worse? (Do the blacks wash out under bright light?) A related question: How does it look if the user is wearing polarized sunglasses, which I tend to do when reading on the beach...

2. How does the French device perform at various reading angles? Is it like E-Ink, which pretty much looks exactly the same from any angle, or is it more like a computer display, with optimum viewing angles?

-chuck

[yvanleterrible]

Originally Posted by nekokami

Yeah, that top electrode is supposedly "transparent," but it probably is contributing to the overall dimness of the screen. I also don't know if this method of producing whiteness would work so well in a liquid, which tends to "smooth out" the kinds of optical structures described in the article.

Maybe some kind of pigment that flouresces (converts other wavelengths, e.g. UV, to visible light) could help, but then again, I don't know how much UV might get through the screen.

In checking the E Ink page for info about where their electrodes are located, I noticed again that E Ink really seems to emphasize the flexibility of their displays. I wonder why all the applications we're seeing in eBook readers seem to be rigid?

The other night while turning all lights out, I noticed all the remotes were lit. It gave me thoughts about phosphorescence. If the white compound in eink was exitable by the grids at each page turn it could temporarily give off a little bit of light, aiding the display. Could also be bio luminescence?

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by NatCh

Personally, though, I'm not sure I'd want a display that can't stay flat...

Yeah, but the display would be less likely to get broken if it were flexible. It's not so much that I want to roll it up, but that I'd like it not to break if it gets bumped. I think it's easier to cushion the innards than a big plate of glass or rigid plastic on the surface.

@Yvan, I think they could get the white particles to glow temporarily, but any ongoing light would of course require ongoing power.

[segatang]

The Taiwanese Picvue company is a STN panel factory.
It provided the "green panel" for the "EBK" reader in 2003.
I don't know why it did not provide the "white BiNem panel".
However, the Picvue seems go out of business

[Anchoku]

Segatang,

Try going to Prime View (www.pvi.com.tw).



Phosphors tend to be chemically active so E-Ink may have problems with the idea of making the white capsules glow in the dark.


E-Ink's flexible sheet is a replacement for liquid crystal, not the whole display. That's why they need something addressable to build an electric field across. Until something like Plastic Logic's flexible TFT can meet the performance, cost and, reliability of the standard inorganic transistors and conductors on glass, it will be hard to build a business case for switching. For now, enjoy your E-Ink and glass sandwich.



Entirely reflective displays have the same contrast no matter what light level is used. It's just easier for the eye to read if you have enough light. The contrast of black ink on a white sheet of paper is the same in the dark as it is with a light on. So... make sure you have a light on.

About the bistable nematic display, it should be pretty good over a wide angle. White "luminance" will depend on how good the white diffuse reflector is behind the LCD and how much light gets eaten by the various layers between. Black luminance (you want as little as possible) depends on how well the LC absorbs the light and how little reflection there is between the LC and your eye.


NatCh has a good point in that the market for a flexible reader may not be as infinite as press releases seem to imply. We like writing on and reading off flat surfaces. If we can put up with cell phones, PDAs, e-books, UMPCs, notebooks and so on, what's driving us to a roll-up display? For that matter, where would the rest of the computer go? Check this old news.
Artist's conception.

[chuck94022]

Originally Posted by Anchoku

...

Entirely reflective displays have the same contrast no matter what light level is used. It's just easier for the eye to read if you have enough light. The contrast of black ink on a white sheet of paper is the same in the dark as it is with a light on. So... make sure you have a light on.

hmm... ok, I can buy the theory that regardless of the number of photons around, the ratio between reflected and absorbed will remain the same between the opaque ink and the white background. And sure, with more light, the eye will interpret the received photons better, because there will be a lot of white reflections coming in to tickle the old rods and cones. My old rods and cones seem to really covet photons these days!

But... I think in practice, the situation is more complex in the case of the LCD technology underpinning the french display. If the liquid crystal is not as opaque as the ink particles, there might be partial absorption of the photons by the liquid crystal, but some would get through and be reflected back by the background. In bright light, sufficient background photons might be reflected so that the absorbed photons are not as distinguishable by the eye. In other words, washout of the liquid crystal.

Am I making it up? Is this a valid concern, or just an overactive imagination?

Originally Posted by Anchoku

About the bistable nematic display, it should be pretty good over a wide angle. White "luminance" will depend on how good the white diffuse reflector is behind the LCD and how much light gets eaten by the various layers between. Black luminance (you want as little as possible) depends on how well the LC absorbs the light and how little reflection there is between the LC and your eye.

I can understand this too. But is it "as good as" e-ink? E-ink gives a very good illusion of ink on paper with regard to viewing angle. I have never found any LCD, including every reflection only LCD I've ever viewed, that comes close to that illusion. Even the video doesn't seem quite "right".

Perhaps I'm picky, but I think it would be good to understand the difference.

Originally Posted by Anchoku

For that matter, where would the rest of the computer go? Check this old news.
Artist's conception.

I think the rest of the computer would go in that little knob at the top of the roller! :-)

-chuck

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by Anchoku

... what's driving us to a roll-up display?

The only thing I can think of is the obvious benefit of having a larger display than you actually have to carry around.