Solid State E-Books

[pdam]

The original idea in this thread seems good, keeping the physical ownership token is well understood, but as with all DRM, it'll be annoying to buyers, who don't want any and will be limited by it.

Some commercial software reader vendors offer a similar service ... however it gets complicated because I want to read the same thing on my PC and my PDA (or in future eBook), the solutions I have seen have a complicated software solution that allows me to install 2 copies on already on my SD card and I can transfer one onto a HD of my PC....while I have network connectivity.

I then change my PC ... have to re-initialise all the books I had, and go off the whole idea ...

Also - When I leave my paperback lying around it's big enough to find again with a bit of hunting, with an SD card or similar I'd have to be a lot more organised! (I usually have 2-3 books on the go at once ...

I'm not sure the physical token, although intuitive, is the way to go - a universal online personal library would work for me. The idea is that books I own are registered with the librabry. I have a book on a device and it gets authenticated for say 3 months, if I own the book it simply get re-authenticated every 3 months (in a similar way to DHCP). I can put it on another device as I wish (say a max of 3 copies which is reasonable). I can sell the book second hand (as I could with a paper book, it simply gets taken off of my personal list). The cost of the library is built into the cost of the book.

So this would mean I don't HAVE to be online to read my books, I can shift them around easily enough with occational access, I can sell them and the DRM is universal - I don't have lot's of different kinds ...

...well you can always dream ...

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by pdam

I'm not sure the physical token, although intuitive, is the way to go - a universal online personal library would work for me. The idea is that books I own are registered with the librabry. I have a book on a device and it gets authenticated for say 3 months, if I own the book it simply get re-authenticated every 3 months (in a similar way to DHCP). I can put it on another device as I wish (say a max of 3 copies which is reasonable). I can sell the book second hand (as I could with a paper book, it simply gets taken off of my personal list). The cost of the library is built into the cost of the book.

Actually, this is unworkable too. While this gets around the reselling/give-away issue, it has all of the same drawbacks as any other proprietary solution.

In order to really make it work, you have to have DRM. That means that the reader must be locked down. Now, if the prices they charge are reasonable, these may not be an issue to most people. But so far this hasn't been the case (except for libraries).

If the Universal Library goes under, or has a data loss, you lose your book investment.
If the UL doesn't support the device you want to read your eBook on, you are out of luck.
If the UL drops a book you want, you can't re-authenticate to read it and you can't read it again.

Basically, the Universal Library gets to control what you can/can't read and where/how you can read the eBook. Therefore whoever controls the Universal Library can control what you can read. That's a bad thing in a free society.

[pdam]

I agree, in the real world a UL is likely to be inpractical ... but while still dreaming ...

Originally Posted by rlauzon

If the Universal Library goes under, or has a data loss, you lose your book investment.
If the UL doesn't support the device you want to read your eBook on, you are out of luck.
If the UL drops a book you want, you can't re-authenticate to read it and you can't read it again
...
That's a bad thing in a free society.

Absolutely a worry about a Universal Library (more a bookshelf actually while I think about it) going under. Ideally it would be a not-for-profit quango, with a government support net, backed by major publishers, giving it more longevity.

I wouldn't see the device or reader being a major issue - more the docuemnt format - this would probably support a limited number of open standards, it's DRM schema should also be open - thus standardising DRM on an open system (if you have to have it, best it is open and common) and also driving format standards - the question would be more about your device supporting the content standard rather than the UL (I'd envisage the openDRM element built into the content wrapper - you put the complexity hear, simply have a minor communication protocol at the device level).

Dropping books - again, in an ideal world, the repository would be abstracted from the DRM serving mechanism - this would be a publicly owned store - so nothing ever gets dropped or deleted and there would be no chance of it going under (without servre political turmoil).

Well that's a bit more detail to the dream, and it's major drawback is that it relies on , albeit infrequent, internet access.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by pdam

I wouldn't see the device or reader being a major issue - more the docuemnt format - this would probably support a limited number of open standards, it's DRM schema should also be open - thus standardising DRM on an open system (if you have to have it, best it is open and common) and also driving format standards - the question would be more about your device supporting the content standard rather than the UL (I'd envisage the openDRM element built into the content wrapper - you put the complexity hear, simply have a minor communication protocol at the device level).

DRM cannot be open. It's either DRM and closed/proprietary, or open and no DRM. There is no middle ground. This isn't a political statement - it's a logical one.

OpenDRM means that the lock used to lock up the content and the key to unlock the content are known to everyone. Since the reader must unlock the content for you to view, someone can create a reader that simply writes the unlocked content to your hard drive. Therefore, there is no OpenDRM.

The only way that DRM can meet its objective of preventing unauthorized copying is to be closed and proprietary.

Originally Posted by pdam

Dropping books - again, in an ideal world, the repository would be abstracted from the DRM serving mechanism - this would be a publicly owned store - so nothing ever gets dropped or deleted and there would be no chance of it going under (without servre political turmoil).

Right. There are a nice big list of "banned books" over the years that public pressure forced out of libraries and local bookstores.

Based on the political pressures of today, I'd say it's a good chance that many "free" countries will start banning (from a legal level) books that they deem "indecent" (like books that criticize certain political stands).

[yvanleterrible]

Politics can not have control over internet, whatever frustration level it comes to. Internet is worldwide and anarchic, like VD. You can only protect yourself not the others.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by yvanleterrible

Politics can not have control over internet....

I wonder if they know that in Beijing?

[VillageReader]

This might be a silly question - I know I ask enough of them.

Fictionwise sells both DRM and open format e-books. Anyone have a contact there to see which does better in the market?

[Kosst Amojan]

Here’s how I see it:

Off the bat we need standards, SD’s cards are a good start for the books; I think tying them to a physical card is crucial. On the file side we need a standard e-book format or set of formats that every reader can read. Finally commercial cards need to locked by software AND hardware...let me explain.

Make commercial e-book SD cards (EBSD’s) slightly physically different then regular SD cards so that an e-book reader can read both but a regular SD card reader can only read regular SD cards. (The EBSD’s can have a bulge where they are inserted like this:
( ] instead of [ ]. The EBSD reader would have a corresponding concave bulge to accept it.)

Oh and the bulge would contain some circuits so if you tried the floppy hack it wouldn’t work. Now if the reader is DRM protected then it would be limited to just reading and not copying. This entire scheme however would depend upon cooperation of hardware makers not to make EBSD readers (or USB converters) outside of DRM protected e-book readers. This can be hacked but it would involve a bit of cutting and soldering so most people won’t do it.

The best part would be the EBSD cards can be created easily with a special machine and then would be able to run on any compliant reader.

[NatCh]

At one point I considered the idea of embedding a microprocessor on the SD card (If they can cram 4GB in there an 8086 processor shouldn't be a challenge ). The processor would gatekeep the contents and only allow them out if it liked what the card was connected to. Maybe it would even serve up the information only in page-sized chunks.

Possible? Probably. Feasible?

[Bob Russell]

Don't we have the same problems with a physical SD card copy protection as you would with software DRM schemes?
-- No backups
-- Once the technology advances, you can't read it anymore
-- The DRM can be broken, especially if it's a universal protection scheme (because all the DRM-breakers are focused on one scheme, unless there are stricter legal constraints, which are certainly not good for consumers.)

The only thing you seem to gain from physical protection is being able to share the file with another person. But schemes (e.g. eReader protection, or even the nightmarish .lit protection) already allow for that on a limited basis. And however "universal" EBSD might get, the same would be possible for any SW protection scheme.

Also, imagine if you want to mix music and e-books on a single SD card and leave it in the reader all the time. With EBSD protection and one book per SD card, now you probably can't combine your e-books and music on the card with the protected e-book.

I just don't see the advantage, other than the tactile benefit for some of storing the e-book files on an SD card. But you could do that yourself with schemes like eReader DRM... just put the books on SD cards. One book per card if you prefer to organize them that way.

Even more severe hardware protection, say fingerprint verification on an SD card, or the dreaded security dongle, seems to fall short. The book is only accessible if you are personally there. But then you still have issues unless the reader software honors the controls (i.e. doesn't copy it). Which puts you back to the same position again as if it was software DRM, doesn't it? You are then still dependent on a select set of software for reading, and therefore dependent on a specific set of technologies or you can't read the e-book.

I'm trying to understand, but you can see why I'm having trouble seeing how hardware helps. Unless maybe it's in conjunction with the reader. But isn't that similar to the original intent of DVD protection, which basically required "collusion agreements" between DVD reading hardware manufacturers? Or it may be similar to rumored protection for new Intel based Vista PCs, that tie the protection to hardware in PCs. Again that requires some "collusion", this time the PC makers, and probably the software running of the PC. It seems more limiting than freeing for the consumer of content.

But if it requires that "collusion" between any DRM file and the reading, how is that better if it's hardware based than software based? In fact, maybe it's worse, because at least older software technology can be emulated. Hardware can't. Software controls only tie a file to reading software. Hardware introduced a third tier of control and doesn't really seem to release the other two. (Granted, in some way maybe you could trade file encryption for hardware control, but I don't see how that helps either.)

At least iTunes allows you to burn music to a CD. It may not be the same quality, and it may be both inconvenient and cost you the blank media, but it is one way to allow users to feel secure about their music and yet provide a simple hurdle to prevent mass casual copying. That's the sort of hope that I have for the future of e-books. The publishers just need to discover that there are as many or more sales to be gained by trusting consumers than by locking everyone down so much that it scares consumers away. We'll see lots of experimentation and various degress of protection (like in the CD protection schemes that have been getting tested). But I don't see completely DRM-free e-books for the newly published book market (in the near future), and I think customers will balk (eventually) at strict DRM controls. The latest novels might be fine because most people just want to read the book. They don't want a time limit, but they are probably willing to reluctantly accept eventual obsolescence of the technology that the e-book is based on. We could argue all day with whether or not that is acceptable, and it's certainly not ideal, but until publishers are willing to allow completely unprotected content, I don't see that as a widespread solution. It may be a great goal, but a lot of paradigm shifts would have to happen to get there.

So, anyway, I just don't see how a physical security solution, especially SD card based security, is addressing any of the problems, other than the non-rights related "comfort" of having a card with a book on it. Once hardware controls are introduced, it only seems to make things worse for the consumer.

How long are SD cards going to be around anyway? They are great right now, and I prefer to buy devices that use SD cards rather than the alternatives. But aren't they eventually going to be the cassettes or records or 8-track tapes of tomorrow?

I probably have a blind spot... because I know a lot of people seem to want a hardware control. What am I missing here?

[NatCh]

I don't know that you're missing much, Bob, you may just not find it compelling.

Regarding backups: you can't back up a pbook, so I don't really see that as an issue, per se.

Advantages to a "hardware" e-book, as I see them:
I own it.
I can lend it.
I can sell it.
I can give it away.
I get to carry something away from Barnes & Nobles when I walk out the door (which may be a big deal to a lot of folks).

I think that SD cards will be around as long as folks use them. If the pubs built their e-books around SD card availability, that would give SD a lot of staying power. You almost said it yourself -- you try to by SD card enabled devices when you can. Folks do that because it's a good, handy, usable format. The more they do it, the more entrenched SD cards become, the more durable the format is.

Did you know that up until a few years ago the 8086 chip was still the most produced chip in the world? They put them into everything from cars to toasters. Recently they jumped all the way up to 286 chips for that sort of simple, embedded application.

Displaying a text isn't that complex a task, relatively speaking, so there's really not that much reason to change that aspect. Given a generally accepted and used file type, I don't see why it can't last a really long time. TXT and RTF have been around quite a while. Yes there are other file types, but the Least Common Denominators remain.

I'm not claiming it has to be that way, nor predicting that it will stay that way, just pointing out that there are a fair number of solid reasons for it not to change.

Somebody who comes along and wants to change it all just to make a buck is going to have a tough row to hoe -- just look at the resistance of folks who already have large libraries of, say, eReader texts who are complaining because the new batch of readers don't support those file types, but rather support RTF's! If we got a standard format into general acceptance and use, then I'd think the inertia of it would become well nigh unimaginable in very short order.

Floppies, cassettes, 8-tracks, VHS, vinyl, magnetic tape, punch cards. They didn't go away because they weren't liked, they went away because something better came along. Books have survived on paper, for cryin' out loud, since the switch from clay tablets! What pressure would there be to push them off SD cards if they settled there? And how many centuries might that take? Obviously we can't know the answers to those questions, but sometimes you have to make the best call you can on the information you have. So the only real question is: is this the best call or not?

I agree, no DRM would be ideal, but sometimes you've got to take the 'half' loaf in hopes the other guy will finally figure out the loaf was a lot bigger in the first place than he thought it was.

[yvanleterrible]

The race for computer speed stopped a little while ago and was replaced with a race for multiple processors, starting an other war against consumers that promises to be quite long. The same will be said for data support standards. Bob is right in assuming that someone somewhere will decide that we can not maintain support an SD cards, they've already started with the newer 80gb sd .

[Bob Russell]

Hmm, maybe I am still missing something...

If the files are going to be generic formats, then doesn't the protection also have to work in conjunction with the reading software and and/or the PC? (Otherwise what stops people from freely copying the SD card e-book and delivering it to their friends in non-protected form?)

As I understand it, here are the two choices being discussed:
1) Encrypt the file and force the reader software to verify identity or authority to the content.
2) Use generic file types, but force the SD card hardware to be present in order to access it, AND only allow authorized reader software to access it (software that has been pre-approved by the body managing the protection scheme) so that copies can't be made.

If the second option doesn't include the reader software in on the game, you can't prevent copies from being made of unprotected files. Or alternatively, you have to encrypt the files, which puts you back in the same case as #1, except you now have to have a dongle (the sd card) instead of a password to authorize it's use.

In the SD card case #2, it seems like you have added a layer of protection, not eased anything. They only change is that now you use the SD card as a dongle in the sense that it verifies authority to use the file. But all the other overhead is still there.

You do have the benefit of being able to pass your book to someone else, but is that worth the extra requirement that you can't read any book unless you have the SD card dongle in addition?

Think of the SD card collection as being software DRM, but with one password per book, and the password is the SD card! I could be wrong, but I think people would really hate being backed into a corner about how they could use the book.... requiring them to carry around a collection of cards instead of the freedom to use one card and a password, and the freedom to make (encrypted) backups or to re-download files from the online store the book was purchased from.

Back to my example, suppose you buy 50 books. Either way you have proprietary reading software required. So do you prefer to be forced to keep 50 physical SD cards with the option to loan them, or do you prefer to be able to put the files on one SD card and have one password? (Even the option to give or loan a book is still possible with software DRM schemes, so that's really not a benefit, except maybe that the controlling organization can die and you would still be able to give away a book in the hardware version -- until the technology goes away. And unfortunately that's the niche security technology, not the standard file layout or SD card technology!)

So I guess what I'm saying is not that nobody would want to keep the SD card books, but that for the vast majority of people, it probably wouldn't make a lot of sense to be constrained that way, and that either way we're probably stuck with the proprietary software to read. The encrypted file approach seems to actually give MORE flexibility than the SD card approach, with the possible exception of the potentially grey area related to giving away a book to someone else.

But I still know that I'm only starting to think about this topic, so I do suspect I have blind spots with regard to the discussion. I don't mean to pound out my points. It's just the only way I can see it at the moment. But I'd love to learn more from "EBSD" card advocates if there's more to the whole thing!

[Kosst Amojan]

Just to be clear, I just made up the “EBSD” but hey it seems to work. Imagine it this way: you have a special DVD that can’t be read by normal DVD players (grooves are too wide or something). A specialty player is only sold as part of a standalone DVD player, not as separate PATA or SATA drive. The new player and DVD’s cost the same as normal DVD’s and players but the player can read normal DVD’s also.

Now the solution to get around that protection is to simply use the DVD player’s video out. But an e-book reader wouldn’t have any output function and if you can’t write to or from a EBSD card and only read it in a reader, it would be difficult to get that data off.

About the SD’s cards, uh have you ever held one? You can fit like 100 in you hand. Maybe they can have some slots on the back of the device to hold half a dozen or so and of course at least one could be a regular SD card to hold like another 100 books and documents.

[NatCh]

Ah, now I think I see what you're asking, Bob. Keep in mind, I'm not saying this is the best solution, only that it seems worth considering.

Just one quick aside:

Originally Posted by Bob Russell

As I understand it, here are the two choices being discussed:
1) Encrypt the file and force the reader software to verify identity or authority to the content.
2) Use generic file types, but force the SD card hardware to be present in order to access it, AND only allow authorized reader software to access it (software that has been pre-approved by the body managing the protection scheme) so that copies can't be made.

I didn't say generic file types, I said a generally accepted and used file type. It doesn't even have to be human readable, and could include whatever extra it needed. That would eliminate the need for proprietary software, yet keep the key to the encryption safely unavailable for duplication ('cause it's the identity of the card the text is on). Your security dongle, if you like. I like the word "dongle" -- it's fun to see the looks on people's faces when you say it.



I see what you're saying about carrying around a bunch of SD cards. Maybe there's a middle ground. What if you could copy the whole file off the SD card onto your reader (which had no output method, aside from the display)? Then you could put whatever texts you were planning to read onto your reader and leave the SD cards back at home. You'd only need it to load the text. That would open them up to you passing the SD card along before you read it, but you could only read it until you deleted it, and then you'd have to have the card back to read it again. Hmm. Pubs wouldn't like that either, I don't think.

I think I'm just trying to keep the concept of a book as a discrete object, and trying to preserve the flexibility that it entails.

And that may not be possible, or even desirable.