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Old 03-09-2009, 11:35 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by scotty1024 View Post
Any tool whose sole purpose is to facilitate circumvention of a digital copyright protection scheme is illegal under the DMCA. Other than cracking I know of no other legitimate reason for the PID generator to exist. I patiently await someone to prove me wrong. I'd hate to think Igor has gone over to the dark side.
Is using it to allow someone to read books they download from the library (which time expire) cracking? No.

Is using it to allow someone to read books they purchased that are distributed by OverDrive cracking? No.

Both of these can be done without removing the DRM from the file.
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Old 03-09-2009, 11:36 PM   #17
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A "test book" with DRM'd PID for a Kindle? The only Mobipocket DRM'd books I'm aware of are copyrighted works: hence the DRM.

And its only "free advertising" if you mention them? Which you didn't. *doh*!
THERE IS NOT DRM STRIPPING IN THE VISUAL GUIDE! You obviously have not read the guide or followed the links because you keep spouting incorrect information. The better to heighten the drama, right.

Well, you can continue your tirade without me. It obvious that you aren't willing to listen and look for yourself (since you know *everything*).
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Old 03-09-2009, 11:53 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scotty1024 View Post
The problem isn't KindleFIX (or last time I checked it wasn't, lord knows what else it does now too) but rather the PID generator. There is no supported means of getting the PID for a Kindle or for the Kindle app on the iPhone. Amazon's DRM scheme for the Kindle eco-system does not want or need for you to know the PID used to secure your books. By making the PID secret Amazon bolstered the security of the existing Mobipocket DRM scheme.
Because once you have the PID used to encode your books, there is a tool that can decode all the ebooks you've purchased from Amazon with that PID.
Any tool whose sole purpose is to facilitate circumvention of a digital copyright protection scheme is illegal under the DMCA. Other than cracking I know of no other legitimate reason for the PID generator to exist. I patiently await someone to prove me wrong. I'd hate to think Igor has gone over to the dark side.
So because amazon keeps the pid's secret, we shouldn't have access to the library?

And since the tool can also be used to crack drm, we shouldn't use it at all?

I need the pid generator to register at my library, which accepts it. Using Kindlefix, again, does NOT crack drm, the books, (again) expire after the loan out period. As long as I stay within that perameter, I am doing nothing illegal.
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Old 03-10-2009, 12:02 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by scotty1024 View Post
Is there actually anyone left on earth still generating DRM'd Mobipocket content for a Kindle PID other than Amazon?

Oh I get it now! You need the PID to crack the .azw files from Amazon and convert them to some other platform! It's now a DMCA circumvention tool due to having no legitimate usage anymore. You know, like back when you could enter the generated Kindle PID into fictionwise.com and get a nice legal DRM'd file that worked on your Kindle after fixing a header bit.
This is the best argument I have seen against KindlePID, and it might hold water if mobipocket.com was the only provider of MOBI DRM (since they refuse to honor Kindle PIDs). OverDrive is a major supplier of DRMed MOBIs and they do accept the Kindle PID. So KindleFIX on OverDrive MOBIs is a non-infringing use for KindlePID.
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Old 03-10-2009, 12:09 AM   #20
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I don't know what is the mythical "40 character PID" you're talking about, but I hear that many library sites do accept Kindle PIDs. And the scripts linked here don't do the actual decryption anyway, so I'm not sure what the four-letter word has to do with it.
Ooops forgot this part of your posting.

Name one library that can deliver a Kindle Application on iPhone PID'd Mobipocket file to the one and only iPhone for that PID? Name one distributor?

No one can.

Amazon has provided no means to deliver content to the application other than directly from their ebook store.

Did you see this posting over on TUAW?

http://www.tuaw.com/2009/03/09/iphon...-foil-pirates/

How many babies go hungry to "protect my freedom's" Igor? How many hungry babies can you handle crying in your dreams at night?

The entire planet is in economic free fall because a few people abused power and ignored responsibility. Now billions are suffering for it.

I can't fix the world economic collapse or people pirating iPhone apps to let babies go hungry but I can stand up here and say "DMCA circumvention tool". It's a key generator Igor, plain and simple. Dress it up anyway you want but it's intent is a key generator to facilitate breaking protected digital content.

The fact that it is easily circumvented isn't the point. The point is you aren't supposed to circumvent it. It's like the police tape around a crime scene. Anyone can lift the tape and go under it but once you do you can't claim "Uh, I'm not supposed to be in here? I was looking for the bathroom?"

Did breaking Fair Play get all my iTunes music set free Igor? No, it didn't. Getting the publishers to relent did. But as I said earlier: we ain't got leverage on the book publishers. Push 'em hard enough and they just sell only paper books. And the government men with guns will do their duty and protect the rights of the publishers to do just that.

The point is to change things so there is no need for DRM. I thought you understood... but I guess I was wrong.
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Old 03-10-2009, 12:35 AM   #21
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If the job this person has doesn't feed his one year old, he'd best get off his duff and do whatever it takes to do so.

Its called "personal responsibility". If you can't feed 'em, don't have 'em.

And spare me the "But things happen!!!" Yeah, they happen, and its up to YOU, the parent to care for your child.
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Old 03-10-2009, 12:57 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by wallcraft View Post
This is the best argument I have seen against KindlePID, and it might hold water if mobipocket.com was the only provider of MOBI DRM (since they refuse to honor Kindle PIDs). OverDrive is a major supplier of DRMed MOBIs and they do accept the Kindle PID. So KindleFIX on OverDrive MOBIs is a non-infringing use for KindlePID.
Hey I supported the PID generator back with Fictionwise took 'em. But now that Amazon has made a point out of telling them they can't take the PID's Amazon's intent is clear: it's a secret key for a DRM system.

In any case... why did Igor add support for iPhone PID's? There is no legitimate fig leaf that covers that addition.

None.

That calls into question the intent. However, his follow up posting leaves no wiggle room at all: by his own words he's gone over to the dark side.

He knows exactly what the tool is for.

Besides those Overdrive folks were the ones that recently pulled the plug on Fictionwise and left me high and dry on more than a couple protected ebooks? If so they're not what I'd call the best example of a DRM distributor out there to be plugging your Kindle PID into.

And my guess would be they're one step ahead at most from Amazon's lawyers as it is. Amazon is clearly taking the low tech approach to re-securing Mobipocket until Topaz is ready for prime time: make the PID's secret and unsupported by anyone else.

Our society rests on a bed rock of laws. If you disagree with a law you get it changed. If you break the laws you disagree with what keeps me safe if you decide I have something you need more? Where does the law breaking end? I tell you where it ends: a shivering baby shucking milk from it's mother's teat in a cold damp shelter since Mom's warm home was lost along with her job when someone broke a law they disagreed with.

http://www.rr.com/security/security/...embezzling_10M

The law didn't stop the lady from embezzling. The law didn't stop the employees from losing their jobs. Laws have no power unless people agree to abide by them and help find and stop those whom won't. People have to remember that it doesn't take a badge to make society work.

We won't get DRM repealed by going to the governments and saying "Repeal DRM because it doesn't work, it's easily broken, it's impossible to make it strong enough to not be broken, it's pointless!"

You get DRM repealed by going to the government and getting them to understand that people are basically honest. If they understand that taking a copy of an ebook means a baby might be going hungry they won't do it, unless their own baby is going hungry and they need the ebook.

Which is my point in the whole DRM argument: people are honest, people understand "pay it forward", people just need to know when they are taking something from someone else: which can be tricky with digital content "what am I taking?" If you can't afford that copy of Super Monkey Ball for your iPhone that's one thing. If you can and think it's over priced but you take it anyway, that's something else.

So say what you want about Overdrive's and libraries but the real issue is either you abide by the laws of society: or you don't. The copyright holders are just that: the copyright holders. They decide when and how we get to use their content. Someday that protected content will enter the public domain and when that happy day for society occurs we get to decide. But until that day comes the deal we made as society was they the copyright holders get to decide.

Is this really so hard to grasp?
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Old 03-10-2009, 01:16 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by scotty1024 View Post
How many babies go hungry to "protect my freedom's" Igor? How many hungry babies can you handle crying in your dreams at night?

The entire planet is in economic free fall because a few people abused power and ignored responsibility. Now billions are suffering for it.
What the h..l has anything to do with anything?

I would truly ask moderators to stop ad hominen attacks like the above which are just disgusting...
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Old 03-10-2009, 01:26 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by scotty1024 View Post
Any tool whose sole purpose is to facilitate circumvention of a digital copyright protection scheme is illegal under the DMCA. Other than cracking I know of no other legitimate reason for the PID generator to exist. I patiently await someone to prove me wrong. I'd hate to think Igor has gone over to the dark side.
I use it to put library e-books onto my Kindle. Without a PID I couldn't do so. No DRM is removed, the content still expires after 3 weeks.
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Old 03-10-2009, 01:26 AM   #25
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the PID concept is a secret key between the user and the provider. So if there is a tool for a user of the device to find out what is their secret key, that's just pretty hard to say the tool maker is malicious. There is going to be a benefit of the doubt for the user that they will have integrity and not go sharing copyright work. I think the users also already know about the consequences of sharing copyright work will discourage publishers to do any eBook publishing.

You really don't want to start making DRM to be hassle-ful to leave a distaste in users' experience. Calling all your users criminals also don't help. There is also a thing called "karma", "What goes around, comes around." If there are users who really are not irresponsible, there are many things in life that will get them back.

So, chill. We are individuals have high integrity, right?
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Old 03-10-2009, 01:28 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by desertgrandma View Post
If the job this person has doesn't feed his one year old, he'd best get off his duff and do whatever it takes to do so.

Its called "personal responsibility". If you can't feed 'em, don't have 'em.

And spare me the "But things happen!!!" Yeah, they happen, and its up to YOU, the parent to care for your child.
So if someone is stealing from your business and taking the money to feed the baby it's the fault of the person running the business not that of the people taking the product? Is that really what you are saying?

Your argument is also ignoring the fact that society agreed to protect their right to control the distribution of their intellectual property in exchange for renumeration in some form to compensate them for the time invested in creating something of worth that they are then making the benefits of that intellectual property available for society to enjoy.

You are in essence arguing the side of the book keeper in this article. Please read this article and explain to me about responsibility.

http://www.rr.com/security/security/...embezzling_10M

In case you haven't heard there are lots and lots of responsible people being thrown out of warm houses with their children onto cold streets. Hard working people whom suddenly, unexpectedly, no longer have a pay check through no fault or responsibility of their own. How many former Circuit City workers are homeless today? How many responsible renters whom were paying their rent on time as the actual home owners didn't pay the mortgages are being tossed out of their warm homes this very night as we sit here debating?

Your hard nose attitude collapses in the face of the evils that are running rampant in the world today. Too many people sat idly by as book keepers and financial advisor's (Madoff) et al did bad things. I mean read that article above and tell me honestly that husband didn't know his wife was embezzling $25,000 per week? I'm sure you'd say it was none of his business what his wife was doing right?

So you're arguing that no one is being harmed by stealing intellectual property. If you are using the money from your ebook or application and everyone starts stealing it and the money disappears no blame attaches to those taking the product? None at all? Is that really what you are saying?

If so, at this point all I can say is for society is truly doomed if more people take your attitude. Because it isn't much of a slide from taking ebooks to taking pretty much anything else you think someone else has too much of and you not enough. How long before the barren woman whom can't have a child comes for your baby and leaves a note saying "You can have another, I can't have even one." Oh wait, they're already do that aren't they... maybe this whole argument is moot.
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Old 03-10-2009, 01:53 AM   #27
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So, chill. We are individuals have high integrity, right?
I wish we were.

Kindle's are not marketed overseas. The Kindle App for iPhone is only sold in the US store to US residents.

Ever ask "Why?"

Amazon has secured digital publication rights for the ebooks they sell in the US only.

Go look here on Mobileread and see how many non-US residents are absolutely tickled pink to be able to jailbreak their iPhones and grab Kindle content off them?

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So, chill. We are individuals have high integrity, right?
By their glee and their actions: apparently not.

Intellectually the only difference I see between them and the looting that occurred of damaged homes during the recent flooding here in the Pacific Northwest is more people were outraged. People got there were real victims of the violations of property rights. Here I have a long line of apologists that seem to think it's all victimless: no hungry babies. Heck some people might even say the looters had every right to take stuff: home owners should have taken more steps to protect their stuff.

So no dude, no chill, no more violations, no more raping the fabric of society. If the rights holder wanted the ebook to work on the other platform they'd allow it. Best example is the Kindle on iPhone, Amazon has expanded the platform to non-Amazon hardware. I think it a remarkable sign of faith well invested in Amazon.

No one is pointing a gun at your head and making you buy Kindle editions that don't work on whatever else thingy you want to use them on.

So please, take your own advice: chill. Leave your wallet in your pants and write Amazon and ask them to support your thingy. Maybe you'll get to pull your wallet out soon. But if we tear the platform down in our impatience there will be no more content on the shelves.

As I've said in other postings. As with the flood victims, the point is not how well protected the goods are. The point is: you aren't supposed to take them. Does a man have to pop out of a rice bowl next to you and pop a cap on you to keep you from taking something? (to paraphrase Pulp Fiction)

I ask because that seems to be the strength of your argument in support of my needing to "chill".
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Old 03-10-2009, 02:07 AM   #28
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Old 03-10-2009, 02:12 AM   #29
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There are always more than 1 side of the story. There are many cases a DRM is used and the original company closed down and users are stuck with digital goods that can no longer be used since the original company are busted. Now I think Amazon is here to stay and they really strike for good customer experience and service. I don't encourage people to misuse tools, but as some poster point out that there are library books that uses the Mobipocket platform but unfortunately is not supported by Amazon today.

I certainly don't think users should deDRM the book and post it online. THAT WILL BE VERY WRONG and in some countries, that will be breaking the law. I also think user who deDRM the book and use it on a platform not yet supported Amazon somewhat takes advantage of Amazon. (I know I will get flame by this but hey, its a forum). Amazon builds the infrastructure and has to continue to invest R&D to move technology forward. When the ecosystem becomes unsustainable, its hard to justify companies to invest. I think users will understand that given Amazon/Jeff Bezos have stated numerous times, it is Amazon's vision to make available every book in every language in 60 sec. Amazon is working toward that vision and ebook users will embrace that. That's why I trust users to do the right thing.

It's not an adversary system between users and Amazon.

Moreover, this forum management have stated numerous times that they do not support breaking the law. Igor's tool in this thread certainly does not do that. (Now we know his other tool probably may be more questionable =D).
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Old 03-10-2009, 02:15 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by InlawBiker View Post
I use it to put library e-books onto my Kindle. Without a PID I couldn't do so. No DRM is removed, the content still expires after 3 weeks.
And how do you know if your Library is legally entitled to encode ebooks using a Kindle PID? Amazon has clearly been going around turning this off. Perhaps, during these hard economic times, your library is too poor to upgrade their software to the newer version that respects Amazon's rights AKA fixes the "bug"?

And what would you do if they did upgrade? A bug is a bug after all, it's pretty clear these Mobipocket encoders were supposed to reject PID's with the magic character in them. Would you stomp into the library and demand your non-existent rights?

You are arguing for the side of chaos here. If you think Congress gave DRM holders too much power your argument is with Congress, not Amazon. In any case I think you'd find that the reality is that Amazon's hands are actually tied by the publishers. Frankly, if allowing libraries to lend ebooks to Kindle owners sold more Kindle's, the laws of simple capitalism would seem to dictate Amazon would be happy to sell more Kindle's.

I mean Amazon owns Mobipocket.com. What kind of twisted contracts must be contorting Amazon that they can't sell me content for the Kindle from their own ebook store???

The kind of contracts that come with built in heavy duty NDA's would be my bet.
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