stylesheet.CSS anyone?

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

You can't get rid of the p without changing the meaning. You can discard the em, which works great until you copy/paste this and want to change the zero to something else.

Getting rid of the p means the style can be used as a class with more than just p. But in practical usage, if you use it with just p, it has no difference in functionality. as for the em being removed, if you do want to change the 0, ust put back the em.

And to get back on topic, I do think a stylesheet should be part of the ePub and every class should have a style as well as there being a body style. The problem being that you cannot rely on the defaults. What's the default for ADE might not be the default for iBooks or some other ePub reader. The only way to make sure the ePub looks the same in different programs is to have a stylesheet with all classes defined.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by ProDigit

So, if you have absolutely nothing to add in a css, what would you say, would be the utter minimum that a css file should exist out of?
Can you leave a css fine empty (zero bytes)?

If you're willing to leave the rendering entirely up to the rendering engine, you don't need to include any CSS at all. You can use an empty CSS file, or just not include a CSS file at all.

However, you should not then try to enforce any rendering by use of in-line HTML style commands. If you're going to do any formatting, you should do it in CSS for consistency.

That is, it's much better to have CSS of

p {
text-indent: 1em;
}

p.first {
text-indent: 0em;
}

and HTML of

<p class="first">First paragraph in my chapter</p>
<p>Next paragraph</p>
<p>Another paragraph<p>

rather than just HTML of

<p style="text-indent: 1em">First paragraph in my chapter</p>
<p style="text-indent: 0em">Next paragraph</p>
<p style="text-indent: 0em">Another paragraph<p>

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Getting rid of the p means the style can be used as a class with more than just p. But in practical usage, if you use it with just p, it has no difference in functionality.

If you remove the p, you'll change the meaning. It isn't a consequence-free change.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

And to get back on topic, I do think a stylesheet should be part of the ePub and every class should have a style as well as there being a body style. The problem being that you cannot rely on the defaults. What's the default for ADE might not be the default for iBooks or some other ePub reader. The only way to make sure the ePub looks the same in different programs is to have a stylesheet with all classes defined.

I mostly agree. Having CSS style sheet that defined every possible attribute to over-ride all defaults would be over-managing the display of the text, I think. But might be needed in some very design-led books.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

If you remove the p, you'll change the meaning. It isn't a consequence-free change.

What would be the consequence of removing the p?

I mostly agree. Having CSS style sheet that defined every possible attribute to over-ride all defaults would be over-managing the display of the text, I think. But might be needed in some very design-led books.

I'm not saying to override everything. But you do have to define every class or the class does nothing. It has no meaning.

<p class="noindent"> is meaningless if noindent is not defined.

[Turtle91]

The UTTER minimum is to not have one at all. It's not required. BUT your books would look....ummmm.... horrendous. Unless you decided to totally go against best practice and put any/all styling inline (in your html)...

You can have a really good, really compact, minimalist css file that really makes your book look good. It just takes practice/experience. I would highly recommend NOT ignoring the possibilities of css in your ePub reinvention journey.


edit: ooops...didn't see page 2 lol. What they said...

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

What would be the consequence of removing the p?

Well, any element with class first would inherit that style, of course. Unless specified more closely.

Only if no other element uses the class first would it make no difference.

[ProDigit]

By not putting anything at all, the ebook reader will aplly font type, size, line spacing, and margins.
So it's not like it's super ugly.
A lot of books that are formatted in a certain way, only look good that way, that the publisher intended.
As soon as the reader overrides the font sizes and margins, it'll look different, as many people may not be comfortable with the font sizes chosen anyway.

So the first letter of a paragraph doesn't look big without a css. What else changes?

[doubleshuffle]

Originally Posted by ProDigit

So the first letter of a paragraph doesn't look big without a css. What else changes?

Big website-style gaps between paragraphs.
Unindented paragraphs.
Titles too large, always bold, with too small a top-margin.
Ugly for prose, a total mess for poetry.

That's more than enough ugliness for me, but perhaps not for you. You'll have to test that for yourself. But whenever I come across a book like that, I am a bit miffed.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Well, any element with class first would inherit that style, of course. Unless specified more closely.

Only if no other element uses the class first would it make no difference.

So I see no reason to put p in as long as you only use it with p. In fact, I see no reason to limit any class. Sometimes I find the need for something that if I had limited it would mean having to add in another class when I already had one that worked.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ProDigit

By not putting anything at all, the ebook reader will aplly font type, size, line spacing, and margins.
So it's not like it's super ugly.
A lot of books that are formatted in a certain way, only look good that way, that the publisher intended.
As soon as the reader overrides the font sizes and margins, it'll look different, as many people may not be comfortable with the font sizes chosen anyway.

So the first letter of a paragraph doesn't look big without a css. What else changes?

It will look super ugly.

As for your lot of books, I disagree. I've changed some of the formatting of many eBooks and they look even better when I am done. The thing with eBooks is it's OK to change things so you are able to comfortably read.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by doubleshuffle

Big website-style gaps between paragraphs.
Unindented paragraphs.
Titles too large, always bold, with too small a top-margin.
Ugly for prose, a total mess for poetry.

That's more than enough ugliness for me, but perhaps not for you. You'll have to test that for yourself. But whenever I come across a book like that, I am a bit miffed.

That's ugly for reading as well. No paragraph spaces, proper indents, and no margins is what works best. I'll change the margins, I'll change the line height, I'll change the font, I'll change the font size, and I'll enjoy reading as long as I like the book.

[Turtle91]

Originally Posted by ProDigit

By not putting anything at all, the ebook reader will aplly font type, size, line spacing, and margins.
So it's not like it's super ugly.
A lot of books that are formatted in a certain way, only look good that way, that the publisher intended.
As soon as the reader overrides the font sizes and margins, it'll look different, as many people may not be comfortable with the font sizes chosen anyway.

So the first letter of a paragraph doesn't look big without a css. What else changes?

You have a very naive and optimistic expectation that devices/apps will apply font type, size, line spacing, and margins appropriately...or even that they will allow the user to change those to their preference.

Not all of them do.

I would even go so far as to say that most do not. Although yours might, it is by far the wiser course to provide a default style. Then, if the user wishes, and their device/app allows, they can change your defaults to suit.

The above discussion about the merits of specifying the element, or not, aside, you would have chosen...unwisely... if you decide to disregard css altogether.

Anyone, or any computer, can put <p> tags around every paragraph, but "styling" the book (with css) is what makes it enjoyable to read - or at least makes it so people aren't distracted by the bad formatting to the extent that they cannot enjoy the story.

Can you imagine trying to read a book like this:

Spoiler:

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Pellentesque auctor augue arcu, nec aliquam diam dignissim et. Vestibulum sem dolor, dictum vitae ex a, rhoncus dignissim augue. Cum sociis natoque penatibus et magnis dis parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus. Integer quis pulvinar ipsum, sit amet eleifend erat. Etiam bibendum nisl velit, eu congue neque rutrum sed. Phasellus purus eros, molestie et est sed, laoreet commodo sem. Duis non nunc arcu. Etiam cursus sem tortor, nec luctus metus rutrum non. Cras auctor tellus at tincidunt ullamcorper. Fusce tristique venenatis commodo. Suspendisse viverra, nisl placerat sagittis tempor, felis est tempor turpis, a finibus nulla massa sed sapien. Nam ut blandit nisi.
Pellentesque laoreet dictum metus. Vestibulum ante ipsum primis in faucibus orci luctus et ultrices posuere cubilia Curae; Integer non velit ac magna maximus sodales sit amet id augue. Vestibulum vehicula blandit ultrices. Maecenas vitae varius ex, vitae venenatis libero. Suspendisse varius ligula non tortor tincidunt, vitae imperdiet turpis venenatis. Praesent vitae mauris ac enim tristique efficitur nec quis nulla.
Aenean consequat, nisi vel dapibus gravida, magna purus hendrerit felis, sit amet convallis turpis nisi a lorem. Etiam at ligula ultricies, viverra purus a, interdum mi. Vestibulum commodo eros ut eros accumsan efficitur. Vivamus vitae purus felis. Mauris aliquam, nulla in tempus volutpat, justo libero viverra nisl, in interdum ipsum dui a justo. Morbi eros lectus, sodales a sagittis nec, sagittis at libero. Duis sit amet nisi nec ligula venenatis rhoncus. Nam in mi porta, bibendum nibh vitae, eleifend diam. Integer et nisl sem. Mauris porttitor, ex et sollicitudin hendrerit, nisi magna viverra augue, sed maximus eros leo vitae purus. Integer venenatis odio vel augue consectetur lacinia. Cras mattis euismod arcu, in consequat metus suscipit ut.
Aenean sagittis pretium tincidunt. Nam nec magna ut elit tempor rutrum. Praesent eu quam ullamcorper, convallis ante sed, rutrum lectus. Morbi non erat massa. Aenean egestas tincidunt metus nec porta. Nam laoreet ex metus, ut bibendum diam ornare non. Suspendisse fermentum suscipit purus sed accumsan. Nam faucibus eu nunc vitae tristique. Curabitur facilisis mollis nibh, nec feugiat velit molestie non. Curabitur bibendum nisl vitae interdum auctor. Fusce interdum aliquam volutpat. Nam dignissim efficitur nulla, tempor facilisis nunc aliquam at.
Sed mollis eleifend libero in varius. Pellentesque vel dictum nulla. Curabitur eros velit, semper id nunc quis, eleifend vulputate leo. Pellentesque viverra sapien sed semper scelerisque. Ut at purus elit. Nam sed nibh erat. Nulla ac finibus tortor.

or this:

Spoiler:

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Pellentesque auctor augue arcu, nec aliquam diam dignissim et. Vestibulum sem dolor, dictum vitae ex a, rhoncus dignissim augue. Cum sociis natoque penatibus et magnis dis parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus. Integer quis pulvinar ipsum, sit amet eleifend erat. Etiam bibendum nisl velit, eu congue neque rutrum sed. Phasellus purus eros, molestie et est sed, laoreet commodo sem. Duis non nunc arcu. Etiam cursus sem tortor, nec luctus metus rutrum non. Cras auctor tellus at tincidunt ullamcorper. Fusce tristique venenatis commodo. Suspendisse viverra, nisl placerat sagittis tempor, felis est tempor turpis, a finibus nulla massa sed sapien. Nam ut blandit nisi.

Pellentesque laoreet dictum metus. Vestibulum ante ipsum primis in faucibus orci luctus et ultrices posuere cubilia Curae; Integer non velit ac magna maximus sodales sit amet id augue. Vestibulum vehicula blandit ultrices. Maecenas vitae varius ex, vitae venenatis libero. Suspendisse varius ligula non tortor tincidunt, vitae imperdiet turpis venenatis. Praesent vitae mauris ac enim tristique efficitur nec quis nulla.

Aenean consequat, nisi vel dapibus gravida, magna purus hendrerit felis, sit amet convallis turpis nisi a lorem. Etiam at ligula ultricies, viverra purus a, interdum mi. Vestibulum commodo eros ut eros accumsan efficitur. Vivamus vitae purus felis. Mauris aliquam, nulla in tempus volutpat, justo libero viverra nisl, in interdum ipsum dui a justo. Morbi eros lectus, sodales a sagittis nec, sagittis at libero. Duis sit amet nisi nec ligula venenatis rhoncus. Nam in mi porta, bibendum nibh vitae, eleifend diam. Integer et nisl sem. Mauris porttitor, ex et sollicitudin hendrerit, nisi magna viverra augue, sed maximus eros leo vitae purus. Integer venenatis odio vel augue consectetur lacinia. Cras mattis euismod arcu, in consequat metus suscipit ut.

Aenean sagittis pretium tincidunt. Nam nec magna ut elit tempor rutrum. Praesent eu quam ullamcorper, convallis ante sed, rutrum lectus. Morbi non erat massa. Aenean egestas tincidunt metus nec porta. Nam laoreet ex metus, ut bibendum diam ornare non. Suspendisse fermentum suscipit purus sed accumsan. Nam faucibus eu nunc vitae tristique. Curabitur facilisis mollis nibh, nec feugiat velit molestie non. Curabitur bibendum nisl vitae interdum auctor. Fusce interdum aliquam volutpat. Nam dignissim efficitur nulla, tempor facilisis nunc aliquam at.

Sed mollis eleifend libero in varius. Pellentesque vel dictum nulla. Curabitur eros velit, semper id nunc quis, eleifend vulputate leo. Pellentesque viverra sapien sed semper scelerisque. Ut at purus elit. Nam sed nibh erat. Nulla ac finibus tortor.

I've seen much worse - and it usually comes from authors who try and use some automated process to create their epub, not using css, or not using it correctly.

[JSWolf]

The first attached image shows the eBook with the CSS and the second image shows how bad it looks without CSS.

There is formatting that gets lost without CSS.

[ProDigit]

The only devices I really looked at making ebooks on, where the Kindle Paperwhite, Kobo H2O, Sony PRS-505, and Jetbook Color.
All of them allow some basic change of fonts, sizes, line spacing, and in some cases margin sizes, and paragraph spacing.

In case of JSWolf's last example, is a good reason to use CSS, using multi font types in one document, ...

But many books only use one font. Especially older books (those in public domain), with only variations either bold or italic text, which can easily be done in HTML.

line indent, I wonder... It's way easier to use a space in the HTML document, or worst case, use '&nbsp;' before each line that needs indenting.
So it is possible in HTML, but for longer texts, it might indeed be better to use it in the CSS.

For encyclopedias, dictionaries, and bibles, line indenting actually is better written in HTML, since it's not using long paragraphs, but multiple very short ones.
Encoding multiple smaller paragraphs to use CSS might end up making your document a lot larger, than just using a space, or '&nbsp;' before each line.

&nbsp; is supposed to be a non-breaking space, but the fact that the '&nbsp;' always comes after a \r\n (enter), means it'll never be broken up, unless in the highly unlikely event that the first word is larger than your display width, or font sizes are large (eg: 24pt or more).

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by ProDigit

line indent, I wonder... It's way easier to use a space in the HTML document, or worst case, use '&nbsp;' before each line that needs indenting.

Please, please do not do this. It's a terrible way to do it, as it adds actual characters into the text - someone copying/pasting the text will also get those characters. It also prevents someone who like no indent and a gap between paragraphs from easily obtaining that result.

CSS is intended to separate the appearance of the text from the structure of the text, making it much easier to consistently format the text for display, and to adjust that format. You really should be using it if you're making ePubs.