Update frequency - Page 2

taosaur · 07-31-2014, 01:34 AM

The current update scheme means that those of us who don't use Calibre daily, which is probably the majority of the user base, see the update nag nearly every time we start the program. However, every time we follow through also puts Kovid's donate button in front of us on a functionally unnecessary intermediary page. The whole jump to a web browser is unnecessary as an element of the update process. I'm thinking both the timing and the sequence of events are more a part of Calibre's revenue plan than its development cycle.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying that there's anything sinister about regularly soliciting donations to maintain a volunteer effort--I've clicked the button before and probably will again--but it's one reason we're not likely to see the process change any time soon.

kovidgoyal · 07-31-2014, 01:41 AM

@taosaur: What rot. Quoting from the FAQ entry:
"If I implement a dialog that downloads the update and launches it, instead of going to the website as it does now, that would save the most ardent calibre updater, at most five clicks a week. There are far higher priority things to do in calibre development."

Not to mention that if I ever implemented such a dialog, there is absolutely nothing preventing me from adding a donate button to the dialog.

eschwartz · 07-31-2014, 01:50 AM

Wow, do you see a lot of conspiracies?

Also, I'd like to point out that, like pretty much any calibre confirmation dialog, there is an option to Never Show This Message Again.

How would you suggest the update be changed to be easier? Should calibre download the update for you to run? Where to? And how does that work on linux which doesn't work that way? Etc.

I wouldn't mind if calibre came with an executable "calibre-upgrade", possibly based on my script. But I understand Kovid's main objection, which is:

Quote:

calibre downloads currently use about 100TB of bandwidth a month. Implementing automatic updates would greatly increase that and end up costing thousands of dollars a month, which someone has to pay. And calibre is currently growing at half a million new installs a month.

So it's kind of a good thing that a user has to seriously care in order to update.

Why don't the update urls switch between the mirrors as well as the main site?

kovidgoyal · 07-31-2014, 02:16 AM

There are no free mirrors that can handle the bandwidth and reliability requirements. Both fosshub and sourceforge dont allow direct downloads, their business model is based on showing ads on the download page. I dont like to direct people to websites that show ads that are not in my control. There are spammy advertisers that show large fake download buttons as ads to fool people into downloading malware. I actually have to spend ten minutes every single day reviewing the ads shown on the calibre website to remove these spammy ads.

eschwartz · 07-31-2014, 02:19 AM

OK, that makes sense.

eschwartz · 07-31-2014, 02:23 AM

Looking at Fosshub, I grabbed the link and fed it to wget.

"20 redirections exceeded." Every mirror just has a 301 back to the main url, which then redirects to a mirror.

Code:

wget http://sourceforge.net/projects/calibre/files/latest/download

works just fine.

And going to the page downloads direct, just with a few seconds wait.

kovidgoyal · 07-31-2014, 02:32 AM

The point is that it goes against their business models. After all, they have to pay for the bandwidth somehow, themselves. For instance, I happen to know that fosshub's total bandwidth usage is currently less than calibre's bandwidth usage. There is no way they could handle the costs.

As for sourceforge, they have contacted me in the past trying to get me to add ads into the calibre windows installer in order to monetize the downloads. They have got to be hurting financially.

And note that it only works with wget, not a browser, which is what most people use to download calibre.

eschwartz · 07-31-2014, 02:37 AM

Yeah, since linux isn't exactly the biggest install base.

kovidgoyal · 07-31-2014, 02:54 AM

Indeed, linux makes up less than 2% of the calibre install base. And I am the only calibre developer that actually uses linux. If it were not for that, the linux version of calibre would likely not exist.

Adoby · 07-31-2014, 04:55 AM

I don't mind the current state of things. I have a script that updates calibre for me, when I want. I just open my ~/bin folder and double click on it to run it.

But one option could be to (also?) distribute calibre via bittorrent. An option to decide whether you are willing to participate in the swarm. And a small bittorrent client just for calibre (and PI?) inside calibre. Then whenever you run calibre and download the latest update, you can also share the calibre update with others. And if you use a normal bittorrent client, that could be used instead. Would most likely work fine for downloads, but not everyone would want to share the update with others because of slow Internet or a restrictive plan. Or dubious about bittorrent. Or problems with their firewall.

However, it would most likely be a bit of a challenge to get to work well.

BetterRed · 07-31-2014, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adoby

I don't mind the current state of things. I have a script that updates calibre for me, when I want. I just open my ~/bin folder and double click on it to run it.

But one option could be to (also?) distribute calibre via bittorrent. An option to decide whether you are willing to participate in the swarm. And a small bittorrent client just for calibre (and PI?) inside calibre. Then whenever you run calibre and download the latest update, you can also share the calibre update with others. And if you use a normal bittorrent client, that could be used instead. Would most likely work fine for downloads, but not everyone would want to share the update with others because of slow Internet or a restrictive plan. Or dubious about bittorrent. Or problems with their firewall.

However, it would most likely be a bit of a challenge to get to work well.

Libre Office distributes over bittorrent. I for one would be happy to seed calibre. Would have thought its the tracker sites that pose the perceived risk rather than the bittorrent client. I've been using torrents for quite a long time, never had anything nasty, mind you I don't download cracks from warez sites.

BR

theducks · 07-31-2014, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BetterRed

Libre Office distributes over bittorrent. I for one would be happy to seed calibre. Would have thought its the tracker sites that pose the perceived risk rather than the bittorrent client. I've been using torrents for quite a long time, never had anything nasty, mind you I don't download cracks from warez sites.

BR

I was just thinking Bittorrent also.

My ISP has no problem with me doing (legal) seeding. I always let my Ubuntu DVD loads seed for at least 200%. Running a Calibre seed should not be a issue. I don't think the 'Tracker' bandwidth is all that high that a few alternates couldn't be configured in the dot torrent file for reliability.

HarryT · 07-31-2014, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theducks

I was just thinking Bittorrent also.

My ISP has no problem with me doing (legal) seeding. I always let my Ubuntu DVD loads seed for at least 200%. Running a Calibre seed should not be a issue. I don't think the 'Tracker' bandwidth is all that high that a few alternates couldn't be configured in the dot torrent file for reliability.

Would there not be an issue with BT distribution that a lot of old versions would stay hanging around out there? With the current system, you're guaranteed to always have the current release, but with BT, what would be to stop someone inadvertently getting an ancient version?

mrmikel · 07-31-2014, 06:53 AM

And thereby increase Kovid's support burden. Good point.

Adoby · 07-31-2014, 06:57 AM

If the bittorrent client was integrated in calibre, it could be set to always download and share only the latest version of calibre. If the user allows that. Either for only the current target/architecture or for all. Also plugins could be distributed this way.

Calibre already checks for new versions. The same check could be used to update the bittorrent used.

Using the magnet type of bittorrent there is not even any need for any trackers.

Really advanced would be to split the torrent into several parts so only changed parts need to be updated. For instance Python and 3:rd party libs would most likely not have to be updated very often.

The nice thing about this is that if you participate, and help share calibre, you automatically get the latest version downloaded.

07-31-2014, 02:23 AM	#21
eschwartz Ex-Helpdesk Junkie Posts: 19,421 Karma: 85400180 Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: The Beaten Path, USA, Roundworld, This Side of Infinity Device: Kindle Touch fw5.3.7 (Wifi only)	Looking at Fosshub, I grabbed the link and fed it to wget. "20 redirections exceeded." Every mirror just has a 301 back to the main url, which then redirects to a mirror. Code: wget http://sourceforge.net/projects/calibre/files/latest/download works just fine. And going to the page downloads direct, just with a few seconds wait. Last edited by eschwartz; 07-31-2014 at 02:29 AM.

07-31-2014, 06:57 AM	#30
Adoby Handy Elephant Posts: 1,737 Karma: 26785684 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Southern Sweden, far out in the quiet woods Device: Samsung Galaxy Tab S8 Ultra	If the bittorrent client was integrated in calibre, it could be set to always download and share only the latest version of calibre. If the user allows that. Either for only the current target/architecture or for all. Also plugins could be distributed this way. Calibre already checks for new versions. The same check could be used to update the bittorrent used. Using the magnet type of bittorrent there is not even any need for any trackers. Really advanced would be to split the torrent into several parts so only changed parts need to be updated. For instance Python and 3:rd party libs would most likely not have to be updated very often. The nice thing about this is that if you participate, and help share calibre, you automatically get the latest version downloaded. Last edited by Adoby; 07-31-2014 at 07:05 AM.

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07-31-2014, 01:34 AM	#16
taosaur intelligent posterior Posts: 1,562 Karma: 21295618 Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Ohiopolis Device: Kindle Paperwhite 2, Samsung S8, Lenovo Tab 3 Pro	The current update scheme means that those of us who don't use Calibre daily, which is probably the majority of the user base, see the update nag nearly every time we start the program. However, every time we follow through also puts Kovid's donate button in front of us on a functionally unnecessary intermediary page. The whole jump to a web browser is unnecessary as an element of the update process. I'm thinking both the timing and the sequence of events are more a part of Calibre's revenue plan than its development cycle. Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying that there's anything sinister about regularly soliciting donations to maintain a volunteer effort--I've clicked the button before and probably will again--but it's one reason we're not likely to see the process change any time soon.

07-31-2014, 01:41 AM	#17
kovidgoyal creator of calibre Posts: 45,370 Karma: 27230406 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mumbai, India Device: Various	@taosaur: What rot. Quoting from the FAQ entry: "If I implement a dialog that downloads the update and launches it, instead of going to the website as it does now, that would save the most ardent calibre updater, at most five clicks a week. There are far higher priority things to do in calibre development." Not to mention that if I ever implemented such a dialog, there is absolutely nothing preventing me from adding a donate button to the dialog.

07-31-2014, 02:16 AM	#19
kovidgoyal creator of calibre Posts: 45,370 Karma: 27230406 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mumbai, India Device: Various	There are no free mirrors that can handle the bandwidth and reliability requirements. Both fosshub and sourceforge dont allow direct downloads, their business model is based on showing ads on the download page. I dont like to direct people to websites that show ads that are not in my control. There are spammy advertisers that show large fake download buttons as ads to fool people into downloading malware. I actually have to spend ten minutes every single day reviewing the ads shown on the calibre website to remove these spammy ads.

07-31-2014, 02:19 AM	#20
eschwartz Ex-Helpdesk Junkie Posts: 19,421 Karma: 85400180 Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: The Beaten Path, USA, Roundworld, This Side of Infinity Device: Kindle Touch fw5.3.7 (Wifi only)	OK, that makes sense.

07-31-2014, 02:32 AM	#22
kovidgoyal creator of calibre Posts: 45,370 Karma: 27230406 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mumbai, India Device: Various	The point is that it goes against their business models. After all, they have to pay for the bandwidth somehow, themselves. For instance, I happen to know that fosshub's total bandwidth usage is currently less than calibre's bandwidth usage. There is no way they could handle the costs. As for sourceforge, they have contacted me in the past trying to get me to add ads into the calibre windows installer in order to monetize the downloads. They have got to be hurting financially. And note that it only works with wget, not a browser, which is what most people use to download calibre.

07-31-2014, 02:37 AM	#23
eschwartz Ex-Helpdesk Junkie Posts: 19,421 Karma: 85400180 Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: The Beaten Path, USA, Roundworld, This Side of Infinity Device: Kindle Touch fw5.3.7 (Wifi only)	Yeah, since linux isn't exactly the biggest install base.

07-31-2014, 02:54 AM	#24
kovidgoyal creator of calibre Posts: 45,370 Karma: 27230406 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mumbai, India Device: Various	Indeed, linux makes up less than 2% of the calibre install base. And I am the only calibre developer that actually uses linux. If it were not for that, the linux version of calibre would likely not exist.

07-31-2014, 04:55 AM	#25
Adoby Handy Elephant Posts: 1,737 Karma: 26785684 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Southern Sweden, far out in the quiet woods Device: Samsung Galaxy Tab S8 Ultra	I don't mind the current state of things. I have a script that updates calibre for me, when I want. I just open my ~/bin folder and double click on it to run it. But one option could be to (also?) distribute calibre via bittorrent. An option to decide whether you are willing to participate in the swarm. And a small bittorrent client just for calibre (and PI?) inside calibre. Then whenever you run calibre and download the latest update, you can also share the calibre update with others. And if you use a normal bittorrent client, that could be used instead. Would most likely work fine for downloads, but not everyone would want to share the update with others because of slow Internet or a restrictive plan. Or dubious about bittorrent. Or problems with their firewall. However, it would most likely be a bit of a challenge to get to work well.

07-31-2014, 06:53 AM	#29
mrmikel Color me gone Posts: 2,089 Karma: 1445295 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Central Oregon Coast Device: PRS-300	And thereby increase Kovid's support burden. Good point.

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