Amazon's own ebook format

[jbcohen]

Good point tube monkey since most publishers use DRM encryption EPUB is not really relevant since it can no longer be a standard format.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I would not say the technical paraphernalia has any sort of duty to be irrelevant. It should be totally optional--if you're not interested in it--yes. But I hope it never becomes completely irrelevant. Someone needs to keep up with how it all works.

I meant, of course, that it's irrelevant to the people I was referring to in my post.

Mike

[Little.Egret]

Originally Posted by Mike L

[...]
But the vast majority of ebook users in the world have not the slightest interest in these topics. They buy (or are given) a reader so that they can read books. All the technical paraphernalia is irrelevant. (Which is exactly how it should be.)

Mike

I agree they are not interested, but the terminology that questions from them use suggests that it isn't irrelevant as soon as they get a second reading device or app.

Thus it is always (Amazon) "How can I transfer my books from xxx to my new yyy" betraying that they don't realise the encryption is per device.

Same when there is confusion between downloading via a computer and downloading to read on a computer.

If you are an author or publisher and get complaints that a certain book doesn't display right, but only on some models of reader you will soon start to demand standards and emulators.

[barryem]

I think it's a mistake to think of epub as the standard. True it is "a" standard since it has all the things required to make a standard. But the mobi format has been around a lot longer than epub.

I think the first big thing in popularizing e-reading was the Palm and there the de facto standard was .doc. Of course that was meaningless as a standard since it was only an extension and didn't define a format, but there was a format commonly associated with it and used by 90% of ebooks. Mobi and epub were developed not so much as a way of standardizing but as a way of including such things as italics and bold text, which the common .doc format didn't support.

The real standard is what people commonly use and today that's mobi and it's variations. In the past it was the common and simple doc format. Epub has never really been a standard in the sense that most people use it.

I'm all for a standard format and I hope that happens someday but I don't see any signs that it might happen soon.

Barry

[sirmaru]

Since most eBooks on the planet are sold by Amazon, then Amazon IS THE standard.

Maybe Amazon should develop some conversion program to enable all other eBooks to be converted to their standard and then charge a nominal fee for it. If their conversion program strips copy protection, the fee could be shared with copyright holders.

They could have users of other formats email their eBooks to their Amazon accounts and do an automatic conversion. They already have that facility for MS Word files and do not charge for the conversion.

There is definitely something wrong with folks stripping copy protection on their own and not paying anything to the copyright holders. That used to happen with music until Amazon dropped the price on songs to near $ 1.00 each and made the labor of stripping copy protection too expensive.

Amazon could even license other eBook manufacturers like Kobo to use the Amazon eBook format for a fee added to the price of Kobos.

I think IBM came up with SGML way back when, on which many of our modern markup languages are based, or were based originally. I used IBM's BookMaster (General Markup Language) in the 1980s to write and format technical software manuals for IBM. That is probably the grand-daddy of book formatting languages and of coursed based on SGML.

HTML was originally SGML based as well, and still shows its roots. HTML is of course the web based document format, but it wasn't designed for printed material or eBooks, much less multimedia.

I know at least for a while Palm OS used PML (Palm Markup Language) for eBooks. It was a very simple markup language without many bells and whistles, but you don't need much for rendering novels I guess.

Mobi format came along and was used by Fictionwise books. But it was still rather limited.

The ePub standard is supposed to be "THE" standard. It is basically HTML modified to work for eBooks. But since Amazon sells 2/3 of all eBooks in the USA market, whatever they use trumps the so-called industry standard, like it or not. KF8 is based on the ePub standard, BTW. From what I understand it is a modified ePub.

[PeterT]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

There is definitely something wrong with folks stripping copy protection on their own and not paying anything to the copyright holders. That used to happen with music until Amazon dropped the price on songs to near $ 1.00 each and made the labor of stripping copy protection too expensive.

HOLD ON A SECOND.

Just because Copy Protection IS removed does NOT mean a person has ANY reason to pay additional fees to the copyright holder.

You are assuming that the only reason people do that is to share material with others; totally INCORRECT.

I could just as easily say that people who share a single Kindle Account with multiple people (for instance you and your wife) should pay an additional license fee as you could both read the same book at the same time.

[hunnymonster]

Originally Posted by PeterT

HOLD ON A SECOND.

What he said.

[sirmaru]

Originally Posted by PeterT

HOLD ON A SECOND.

Just because Copy Protection IS removed does NOT mean a person has ANY reason to pay additional fees to the copyright holder.

You are assuming that the only reason people do that is to share material with others; totally INCORRECT.

I could just as easily say that people who share a single Kindle Account with multiple people (for instance you and your wife) should pay an additional license fee as you could both read the same book at the same time.

Two people can read a print book at the same time with each using their own bookmark. That does not violate any ethical or legal rules. However, copying all the pages in the print book crosses boundary lines which would definitely be unethical at the least.

Songs as well used to be protected on 78 rpm vinyl records. When they got to the mp3 versions, they began being copied galore. There were lots of test cases on those copies especially when they were being shared on internet sites. Apple as well used tough copy protection to secure those iTunes.

Eventually, Amazon started selling them for near $ 1.00 per song without any protection. Since it took usually 15 to 30 minutes to break protection, the vast majority stopped since it was not worth their time to break if a $ 1.00 UNPROTECTED song was now available.

eBooks are now in the same stage of development. Copying print books was long ago defeated by reams of court decisions. At a minimum I regard it as unethical to strip and copy eBooks. However, I doubt any publishers are going to pursue this problem since it is not cost effective.

Now with Amazon dropping prices on eBooks to less than $ 10.00 the time investment is getting burdensome if one places a value on their time. I believe that personal time valuation indicates wasting time on DRM stripping is simply not of value anymore.

It should be noted that the US Attorney General recently won a suit against 5 publishers PLUS Apple but not including Amazon for price fixing.

Amazon now has 10's of thousands of FREE eBooks available plus allowing lending eBooks between customers. To buy a DRM protected version of those same eBooks elsewhere and then to strip the DRIM is a TOTAL WASTE OF TIME.

Finally, the new technology which enables Facebook, Google, Amazon and the NSA to track our every move, it will very soon become easy to trace DRM stripping and locate the violators. When song publishers got the technology to trace song DRM strippers, thousands of legal subpoenas were mailed to those folks on an automated basis. Many faced huge penalties and could not afford the legal expenses to fight them.

Videos as well used to be stripped by huge numbers of people. With most videos now available for small monthly fees from Netflix and a small annual fee from Amazon stripping DRM on videos now is totally OBSOLETE.

Its even possible that Amazon may soon be considering a nominal monthly fee to read any eBooks in their inventory without buying them at all. That would reduce memory size and extend battery life on a new generation of eReaders. For folks like me, who only want to read eBooks but never save them, that would be a huge boon.

Its simply not worth it anymore to strip DRM from eBooks, songs and videos. The times they are a'changin'.

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Its simply not worth it anymore to strip DRM from eBooks, songs and videos. The times they are a'changin'.

Sorry.. It may not be worth it to *you* but it's definitely worth to me. As long as the publishers continue to place DRM on their ebooks, I'll continue to remove it.

I don't pirate. And I truly dislike someone telling it's wrong to strip DRM from ebooks I own. What you do with your ebooks is your decision. Just stop thinking your way is the only way.

[sirmaru]

Originally Posted by jgaiser

Sorry.. It may not be worth it to *you* but it's definitely worth to me. As long as the publishers continue to place DRM on their ebooks, I'll continue to remove it.

I don't pirate. And I truly dislike someone telling it's wrong to strip DRM from ebooks I own. What you do with your ebooks is your decision. Just stop thinking your way is the only way.

See this thread on this forum about DRM legality:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45255

It appears its a civil violation in the UK and has not yet been tested thoroughly in US courts. In some countries or US States it could be a criminal violation. Each jurisdiction sets its own laws.

It should be noted that it is now possible to insert cookies into eBooks to inform eBook sellers if DRM was stripped. Whether anyone would bother to file civil suits about it is a moot point since technology is racing so fast that, in my opinion, its a waste of time.

Since Amazon has been selling DRM free songs for near $ 1.00, I really doubt if anyone is wasting time stripping DRM from songs anymore. I believe that even Apple has ended DRM protection for their ITunes.

I'd rather spend my time reading an eBook than inserting code to strip the DRM.

Its even possible that Amazon may stop placing conventional DRM protection in their eBooks especially if they introduce a plan whereby for a small monthly fee one could read any eBook in their inventory without buying them. They could simply install code which would make the eBook self destruct if anyone tampered with it by even changing the metadata. All other conventional DRM would be gone and any Kindle, eReader or PC registered to the owner would be able to read it.

Of course, if your hobby is stripping DRM, go right ahead. You may enjoy that hobby.

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Its even possible that Amazon may stop placing conventional DRM protection in their eBooks especially if they introduce a plan whereby for a small monthly fee one could read any eBook in their inventory without buying them. They could simply install code which would make the eBook self destruct if anyone tampered with it by even changing the metadata. All other conventional DRM would be gone and any Kindle, eReader or PC registered to the owner would be able to read it.

Of course, if your hobby is stripping DRM, go right ahead. You may enjoy that hobby.

It isn't Amazon pushing DRM, it's publishers. And when we have self-destructing ebooks, I'll stop buying.

And once again, you seem to assume that's there's some kind of extra effort to remove DRM. With plugins for Calibre, once easily configure, there is no effort.

And finally, read your books the way you want to read them. Stop worrying about how others handle their ebooks. They're our books. We'll deal with how *we* want to deal with them.

I'm done with this conversation.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by jswinden

KF8 is based on the ePub standard, BTW. From what I understand it is a modified ePub.

Not really. A KF8 still consists of various records in a binary database. The "KF8 is just an epub in a mobi wrapper" mantra is a bit too simplistic, really. In the sense that html and css are used to present the various "flows," there may be comparisons made to epub, but by that rationale ... all ebook formats would be a modified ePub, then.

A more apt description is that all the components of an ePub can be seamlessly converted to a KF8 ebook that renders (and navigates) nearly identically to the original ePub. But an ePub it ain't.

[sirmaru]

Originally Posted by jgaiser

And finally, read your books the way you want to read them. Stop worrying about how others handle their ebooks. They're our books. We'll deal with how *we* want to deal with them.

The problem is that they are NOT YOUR eBooks. You only buy a license to READ that eBook. You have not purchased a license to strip DRM, change covers, change metadata or change print on the pages.

Of course, you can do all of that since there are no real penalties SO FAR.

Frankly, there will probably never be penalties since technology is soon going to make all this impossible. Just as software was changed from easily stolen BASIC and COBOL code and other easily readable and changeable code to machine code, eBooks can be changed in the same way.

Trying to alter machine coded eBooks would destroy them. I believe machine coded eBooks will be with us next fall when the new Amazon eReaders are introduced. They well may be part of a new eBook business model of renting eBooks with a monthly fee rather than buying them. That is the present model of the video market which has put an end to large chains like Blockbusters which used to sell the videos into now paying a monthly fee to Netflix and / or Amazon to stream the videos.

Some advantages of machine coded eBooks is that they occupy much less space, they can be transferred faster over the internet, they can be indexed at speeds which will dwarf present slow indexing and they will draw much less power from batteries.

[PeterT]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Just as software was changed from easily stolen BASIC and COBOL code and other easily readable and changeable code to machine code, eBooks can be changed in the same way.

You are of course aware that Computers have NEVER run BASIC or COBOL programs; instead, the textual source code was compiled into machine code.

In fact, languages such as BASIC and COBOL came a lot later in the computing business than machine code, as a means of making programmers more productive.

Nowadays very little development is done in machine-code; it's all done in high-level languages, and we rely on the compilers and their knowledge of computer architectures to efficiently create the machine code.