Repeat of the "1984" deletion case? - Page 2

ProfCrash · 12-30-2010, 08:01 PM

Your topic suggests that there has been a repeat of the 1984 issue. In that case Amazon deleted a book from its store, customers archives, and their Kindles.

In this case the Publisher deleted a book from the store removing it from the archive. Not Amazon and the book is still on your Kindle, computer, and K4PC App.

Your concern is valid but the cases are very different. Amazon is involved only because that is who you bought the book through.

osnova · 12-30-2010, 08:13 PM

I am not accusing Amazon here. If it were on B&N's Nook, I might have used the same title because the 1984 case has come to stand for the seller (any seller) removing the purchased digital product from customer's possession. My arguments are in the previous posts. Moreover, here the storage servers are not Zondervan's but Amazon's.

Under the first-sale doctrine, copyright holders (and their agents, Amazon here) have control over their creations until the first sale. If they try to take any action against the product after it was sold, they may violate the property rights of the purchasers. The application of the first-sale doctrine to the digital goods is currently being considered by the courts. My argument is that digital goods should not be treated differently from the physical ones.

gorkon · 12-31-2010, 01:19 AM

This is exactly right but the Bible was NOT deleted from the Kindle. It wasn't on my Kindle but WAS on my old one and my Phone. I simply was not allowed to download the old one at all. NO e-mail. NO nothing. The Kindle just dumped me back to the Archived Items list which it was still on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by osnova

I disagree. It's not an updated Kindle version due to some technical issue or typos (I update my publications all the time because of those). It's a completely different revised edition of the Bible. They chose to call it the same name NIV; however, it's a "new" revision of the translation. The one they deleted was 1984 NIV (Orwellian parallel?). The new one is 2010/11 NIV. Because of the wild success of 1984 NIV, Zondervan wants to position 2010/11 NIV as a complete replacement of 1984 NIV and 2005 TNIV (people and churches that are NIV-"based" would have to upgrade).

However, for various reasons some folks would like to keep the 1984 edition (to compare between the two, the "tradition" of using the 1984 text, because they disagree with the revisions, for historical reasons, etc.). An analogy would be if Lockman Foundation deleted people's 1977 NASB and replaced it with 1995 NASB. In the realm of Bible translations, these things are very important.

gorkon · 12-31-2010, 01:33 AM

They didn't remove it from the archives, they just didn't let me download it any more with NO explanation.

Phone support said there was a problem with the one I bought. What that was, I don't know.

This is COMPLETELY Zondervan's doing....Amazon's vagueness didn't help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by osnova

You are right. I don't have the standing to complain though because my 1984 NIV is still safe on my Kindle DX and PC (they did not remove it from the devices themselves, only from the customer archives). I am going to copy the file to a bunch of places now to keep it from "disappearing."

gorkon · 12-31-2010, 01:37 AM

Wrong.

It was STILL in the Archive....I just could NOT download it....PLUS there was no message telling me why. Just that I couldn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

Your topic suggests that there has been a repeat of the 1984 issue. In that case Amazon deleted a book from its store, customers archives, and their Kindles.

In this case the Publisher deleted a book from the store removing it from the archive. Not Amazon and the book is still on your Kindle, computer, and K4PC App.

Your concern is valid but the cases are very different. Amazon is involved only because that is who you bought the book through.

gorkon · 12-31-2010, 02:00 AM

For more on this, check this take on the 2011 version of the NIV:

http://trevinwax.com/2010/11/16/the-...rces-a-choice/

I bet if you also had TNIV, you probably can't download it if you delete it as the 2011 NIV replaces 1984 NIV and TNIV.

I bet Zondervan did this because lots of people including myself are starting to read The Message. (I have the REMIX version....quite good).

DiapDealer · 12-31-2010, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gorkon

Wrong.

It was STILL in the Archive....I just could NOT download it....PLUS there was no message telling me why. Just that I couldn't.

It was still listed in the archive on your device, but it was removed from your archive on Amazon's servers (go to the "manage your Kindle" page and see). Yes, that seems to be a petty distinction at first glance, but it's an important one nonetheless. Why? Because Amazon didn't reach their long, wireless "arm" into your device and delete the book (like they did with 1984). They promised to handle the situation differently after the 1984 fiasco and they've kept that promise. This way, if you keep a local copy (on your device or PC or whatever), you never have to worry about truly "losing" a book.

There are going to be publisher issues like this from time to time... Amazon can't control that. However, never removing the book from your device (or making a backup of your purchase) is a pretty simple solution that we (as consumers) can control.

Just take some simple (and legal) steps to protect your investment and you should be "golden." I can't download a lot of my older purchase from Fictionwise anymore, but guess what?... I didn't rely on them to keep backups for me so I didn't lose any of my ebooks.

gorkon · 12-31-2010, 09:49 AM

No it was ALSO in the online Archive (as that's the ONLY one there is on the Kindle). Through the browser, there is no indication either of why it can't be downloaded. All options grayed out and no explanation why.

This is a good example of why eBooks will fail if this kind of thing CONTINUES to happen.

All I know is that this needs to be figured out LONG before dead tree books are no longer produced regularly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

It was still listed in the archive on your device, but it was removed from your archive on Amazon's servers (go to the "manage your Kindle" page and see). Yes, that seems to be a petty distinction at first glance, but it's an important one nonetheless. Why? Because Amazon didn't reach their long, wireless "arm" into your device and delete the book (like they did with 1984). They promised to handle the situation differently after the 1984 fiasco and they've kept that promise. This way, if you keep a local copy (on your device or PC or whatever), you never have to worry about truly "losing" a book.

There are going to be publisher issues like this from time to time... Amazon can't control that. However, never removing the book from your device (or making a backup of your purchase) is a pretty simple solution that we (as consumers) can control.

Just take some simple (and legal) steps to protect your investment and you should be "golden." I can't download a lot of my older purchase from Fictionwise anymore, but guess what?... I didn't rely on them to keep backups for me so I didn't lose any of my ebooks.

montalex · 12-31-2010, 09:54 AM

Some weeks ago I complained to Amazon about the formatting of a book I had purchased from them (The Fall, by Simon Mawer). The poor formatting in an azw book is, or course, the publisher's fault. In spite of the fact that I had purchased the book from Amazon months before, they immediately credited my account, and the book was removed from my online Amazon library. However, they never removed it from my Kindle, in spite of the fact that I am in daily 3G connection to get a New York Times subscription.

Amazon has been great to me, and they certainly haven't been peering into my Kindle, so I don't much like the title of this thread. I people are worried about licensing issues, just remove the DRM. No one is going to come get you, and, if ethics is the issue, what is wrong with removing some information from a file? Just don't share your deDRMed bible.

sirmaru · 12-31-2010, 10:09 AM

I just purchased the 2010 NIV yesterday from Amazon (Kindle Edition) and is vastly IMPROVED over the old 1984 edition. I have the latter on my Sony PRS 900.

The TOC is improved enough to reach books and chapters more easily. It even has 2 and 3 digit abbreviations next to the book titles. This DOES allow a search directly to the TOC line for that book but not to the exact verse.

However, it still does not have Direct Verse Jump or it's equivalent.

I also own the 1984 NIV on my Now Bible which does have their own version of a Direct Verse Jump.

The 2010 NIV Preface states that 5% of verses have been altered from the 1984 Edition mainly in the downgrading of "sexist terms" like "male" and the use of substitute words for generic references to both men and women.

I believe most Churches will stick to the 1984 version until their donations pick up after the economy starts to rise again. The Church I attend just bought the 1984 version 2 or 3 years ago. They were using the 1978 version until then.

Also, I believe eBooks are much different than pBooks so far as what we actually purchase. When we buy eBooks, we buy a LICENSE to use a FILE with a particular eReader. When we buy a pBook, we buy BOTH a license to read the book AND a set of PAPER. If we lose or destroy the paper in a pBook, we LOSE the license as well. However, if the pBook is upgraded, we do NOT get a license to the new version.

With an eBook we merely get a license to read that eBook with a PARTICULAR eReader. The publisher has every right to pull that license or change it for the particular eReader. For example as of now Sony still has let me keep my 1984 NIV and has not pulled it. Amazon is issuing the new 2010 NIV to new buyers now but still is issuing the 2005 TNIV for those who want that one. The benefit of the LICENSE is that, if we lose the eReader of destroy it, Amazon still keeps our rights protected to download it again at no cost on the new eReader. That license is just for Amazon and does not extend to other brands of eReaders.

Another interesting difference is that my KJV for Kindle still has DVJ1 on it. I even deleted it and redownloaded it. It still has DVJ1. New purchasers get DVJ2. Since I prefer DVJ1 over DVJ2, that situation worked out to my benefit.

WillysJeepMan · 12-31-2010, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

There are going to be publisher issues like this from time to time... Amazon can't control that. However, never removing the book from your device (or making a backup of your purchase) is a pretty simple solution that we (as consumers) can control.

Actually, Amazon CAN control that. They can control it by the type of agreements they make with publishers. But if people are willing to give Amazon a pass for these "publisher issues" then they have no incentive to correct the situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Just take some simple (and legal) steps to protect your investment and you should be "golden." I can't download a lot of my older purchase from Fictionwise anymore, but guess what?... I didn't rely on them to keep backups for me so I didn't lose any of my ebooks.

How is the Kindle DRM set up? Do devices have to periodically "phone home" to determine if the copy is authorized? What happens if you move to a different PC? Is there some DRM keys stored on the PC that need to be transferred?

For some reason I think that even using the solution you propose you won't be as "golden" as you believe.

sirmaru · 12-31-2010, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillysJeepMan

For some reason I think that even using the solution you propose you won't be as "golden" as you believe.

You are correct. We have a license with Amazon, only. Amazon has their contracts with the publishers as well and it may be different for each publisher.

Our Kindle eBooks are merely a license from Amazon, NOT the publisher. Amazon can change the specs of our eReaders by altering the firmware, passing controls via WiFi and even changing the specifications of our DRM on the eBooks. For example, if one gave away one's Kindle eReader, eBooks left on it would probably NOT be readable anymore once ownership changed. The DRM would insure that. Also, I doubt if eBook files on one's PC can be interchanged with the same eBooks on the Kindle WiFi and still be readable. Those eBook files are probably coded to the licensed reading machine in some way.

Amazon is very generous and would probably compensate us if the publisher pulled the Amazon license on a particular eBook for any reason. Thus, with Amazon Kindles we have far better protection than with most other eReader publishers.

PBooks do not have these restrictions. However, if destroyed or lost, they also do not have the protection to re-download and read from one's archive kept on the Amazon servers.

DiapDealer · 12-31-2010, 11:20 AM

Quote:

How is the Kindle DRM set up? Do devices have to periodically "phone home" to determine if the copy is authorized? What happens if you move to a different PC? Is there some DRM keys stored on the PC that need to be transferred?

There is no "phone home" feature for authorization of Kindle ebooks.

Quote:

For some reason I think that even using the solution you propose you won't be as "golden" as you believe.

It is exactly as "golden" as I believe. If you have a copy of the ebook stored for safe keeping, it will always remain readable on THAT particular device (the one it was encrypted for) - regardless of whether they remove the book from your online archive. That's all I ever meant to imply.

Sure, you may run into trouble if you break your Kindle and have to get a new one, but that's a different discussion in which DRM and DRM removal WOULD come into play. I don't care to get into the rightness/wrongness, legality of all that.

My point was... do not assume that your purchase will be available for download from Amazon forever. Past experiences with Fictionwise and other ebook sellers have taught me this. Use your own conscience to determine how far you're willing to go to protect your purchase.

osnova · 12-31-2010, 11:41 AM

DiapDealer, your pragmatic approach is "golden," I agree. The idealist in me wishes that I could just "assume that [my] purchase will be available for download from Amazon forever" (at least for as long as Amazon exists).

DiapDealer · 12-31-2010, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by osnova

DiapDealer, your pragmatic approach is "golden," I agree. The idealist in me wishes that I could just "assume that [my] purchase will be available for download from Amazon forever" (at least for as long as Amazon exists).

Believe me... the idealist in me wishes that very same thing. But he tends to get beat up regularly by the realist in me.

12-30-2010, 08:13 PM	#17
osnova Kindler of the Flame Posts: 582 Karma: 646016 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: US of A Device: K DX,3,KT,KP,KF, KFHD; Nook C, PRS600, iPad, Xoom, N900, N810, Zaurus	I am not accusing Amazon here. If it were on B&N's Nook, I might have used the same title because the 1984 case has come to stand for the seller (any seller) removing the purchased digital product from customer's possession. My arguments are in the previous posts. Moreover, here the storage servers are not Zondervan's but Amazon's. Under the first-sale doctrine, copyright holders (and their agents, Amazon here) have control over their creations until the first sale. If they try to take any action against the product after it was sold, they may violate the property rights of the purchasers. The application of the first-sale doctrine to the digital goods is currently being considered by the courts. My argument is that digital goods should not be treated differently from the physical ones. Last edited by osnova; 12-30-2010 at 08:22 PM.

12-31-2010, 10:09 AM	#25
sirmaru Wizard Posts: 2,426 Karma: 6561538 Join Date: Nov 2007 Device: Kindle PW 2013, HDX 2013, Galaxy S5 2014	2010 NIV is an improvement I just purchased the 2010 NIV yesterday from Amazon (Kindle Edition) and is vastly IMPROVED over the old 1984 edition. I have the latter on my Sony PRS 900. The TOC is improved enough to reach books and chapters more easily. It even has 2 and 3 digit abbreviations next to the book titles. This DOES allow a search directly to the TOC line for that book but not to the exact verse. However, it still does not have Direct Verse Jump or it's equivalent. I also own the 1984 NIV on my Now Bible which does have their own version of a Direct Verse Jump. The 2010 NIV Preface states that 5% of verses have been altered from the 1984 Edition mainly in the downgrading of "sexist terms" like "male" and the use of substitute words for generic references to both men and women. I believe most Churches will stick to the 1984 version until their donations pick up after the economy starts to rise again. The Church I attend just bought the 1984 version 2 or 3 years ago. They were using the 1978 version until then. Also, I believe eBooks are much different than pBooks so far as what we actually purchase. When we buy eBooks, we buy a LICENSE to use a FILE with a particular eReader. When we buy a pBook, we buy BOTH a license to read the book AND a set of PAPER. If we lose or destroy the paper in a pBook, we LOSE the license as well. However, if the pBook is upgraded, we do NOT get a license to the new version. With an eBook we merely get a license to read that eBook with a PARTICULAR eReader. The publisher has every right to pull that license or change it for the particular eReader. For example as of now Sony still has let me keep my 1984 NIV and has not pulled it. Amazon is issuing the new 2010 NIV to new buyers now but still is issuing the 2005 TNIV for those who want that one. The benefit of the LICENSE is that, if we lose the eReader of destroy it, Amazon still keeps our rights protected to download it again at no cost on the new eReader. That license is just for Amazon and does not extend to other brands of eReaders. Another interesting difference is that my KJV for Kindle still has DVJ1 on it. I even deleted it and redownloaded it. It still has DVJ1. New purchasers get DVJ2. Since I prefer DVJ1 over DVJ2, that situation worked out to my benefit. Last edited by sirmaru; 12-31-2010 at 10:25 AM.

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12-30-2010, 08:01 PM	#16
ProfCrash Tea Enthusiast Posts: 8,554 Karma: 75384937 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Somewhere in the USA Device: Kindle1, Kindle DX Graphite, K3 3G, IPad 3, PW2	Your topic suggests that there has been a repeat of the 1984 issue. In that case Amazon deleted a book from its store, customers archives, and their Kindles. In this case the Publisher deleted a book from the store removing it from the archive. Not Amazon and the book is still on your Kindle, computer, and K4PC App. Your concern is valid but the cases are very different. Amazon is involved only because that is who you bought the book through.

12-31-2010, 02:00 AM	#21
gorkon Junior Member Posts: 6 Karma: 10 Join Date: Dec 2010 Device: Kindle	For more on this, check this take on the 2011 version of the NIV: http://trevinwax.com/2010/11/16/the-...rces-a-choice/ I bet if you also had TNIV, you probably can't download it if you delete it as the 2011 NIV replaces 1984 NIV and TNIV. I bet Zondervan did this because lots of people including myself are starting to read The Message. (I have the REMIX version....quite good).

12-31-2010, 09:54 AM	#24
montalex Fanatic Posts: 556 Karma: 1283268 Join Date: Mar 2010 Device: KindleDX,Kindle 4, Kindle Keyboard 3G	Some weeks ago I complained to Amazon about the formatting of a book I had purchased from them (The Fall, by Simon Mawer). The poor formatting in an azw book is, or course, the publisher's fault. In spite of the fact that I had purchased the book from Amazon months before, they immediately credited my account, and the book was removed from my online Amazon library. However, they never removed it from my Kindle, in spite of the fact that I am in daily 3G connection to get a New York Times subscription. Amazon has been great to me, and they certainly haven't been peering into my Kindle, so I don't much like the title of this thread. I people are worried about licensing issues, just remove the DRM. No one is going to come get you, and, if ethics is the issue, what is wrong with removing some information from a file? Just don't share your deDRMed bible.

12-31-2010, 11:41 AM	#29
osnova Kindler of the Flame Posts: 582 Karma: 646016 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: US of A Device: K DX,3,KT,KP,KF, KFHD; Nook C, PRS600, iPad, Xoom, N900, N810, Zaurus	DiapDealer, your pragmatic approach is "golden," I agree. The idealist in me wishes that I could just "assume that [my] purchase will be available for download from Amazon forever" (at least for as long as Amazon exists).

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