Who's Responsible for Shoddy Ebooks?

[starrigger]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

FYI: I just received a reply from author Jack McDevitt, relating the reply he received from Harper Collins when he forwarded my complaint to them. (It was about 2 of his books, both of which had egregious errors from unproofed OCR copy.)

They stated to Jack that "the process is farmed out," meaning, I suppose, the scan and OCR of older books into ebooks. Naturally they expressed regret to Jack, who assured me they are "uncomfortable when they hear from unhappy readers." (I guess they were so uncomfortable that they couldn't bring themselves to contact me directly...)

Jack's letter to me doesn't reveal anything about Harper Collins' plans to fix the problem. Do they even have plans to fix the problem? Only the shadow knows...

Jack McDevitt is a terrific guy and a fine writer, and it's a shame his books got caught in the works of careless and incompetent production. I winced a little when I saw that you'd left a 1-star review because of the poor production quality. That's likely to hurt Jack more than it hurts the publisher. Even if you explained the reason in your review, the net effect is to drag down the overall star-rating on the book--possibly carried over onto the rating for the paper edition--and that's apt to get noticed more than your stated reasons. I have no doubt that Jack wants the best for his readers, but I doubt that he has any control over the ebook production.

I don't know how many stars you would have given the book if the production had been impeccable. But I wonder if a better solution, if you want to note displeasure with bad production on a good book, wouldn't be to reduce the rating by one star, with an explanation of the reason. You could make your point without killing the author. (And writing a letter, of course, is always a good idea.)

[MovieBird]

Originally Posted by starrigger

Jack McDevitt is a terrific guy and a fine writer, and it's a shame his books got caught in the works of careless and incompetent production. I winced a little when I saw that you'd left a 1-star review because of the poor production quality. That's likely to hurt Jack more than it hurts the publisher. Even if you explained the reason in your review, the net effect is to drag down the overall star-rating on the book--possibly carried over onto the rating for the paper edition--and that's apt to get noticed more than your stated reasons. I have no doubt that Jack wants the best for his readers, but I doubt that he has any control over the ebook production.

I don't know how many stars you would have given the book if the production had been impeccable. But I wonder if a better solution, if you want to note displeasure with bad production on a good book, wouldn't be to reduce the rating by one star, with an explanation of the reason. You could make your point without killing the author. (And writing a letter, of course, is always a good idea.)

I know authors tend to be sensitive about their Amazon ratings, but physical presentation is also a part of the product. If the book falls apart after one reading, that's reason enough, in my eyes, to leave a derogatory rating. When a failing in one factor kills the reading experience, rate it as such. It's equally offensive in my eyes to leave 5 star ratings for a product simply doing what it's supposed to; that should really be reserved for products that go above and beyond. If you rate everything as 5 stars, what is left for the one product that really blows you away?

Maybe authors will stop whining about being powerless and get on their publishers asses once they realize the publishers are actively driving away sales.

[L.J. Sellers]

I know several people who produce great epub and mobi files for less than $100 per book. If I can find an inexpensive professional, why can't a publisher hire someone similar? I think it's more about not being committed to producing a quality product because e-books are still an afterthought for most publishers.
L.J.
The Sex Club, $.99!

[starrigger]

Originally Posted by MovieBird

I know authors tend to be sensitive about their Amazon ratings, but physical presentation is also a part of the product. If the book falls apart after one reading, that's reason enough, in my eyes, to leave a derogatory rating. When a failing in one factor kills the reading experience, rate it as such. It's equally offensive in my eyes to leave 5 star ratings for a product simply doing what it's supposed to; that should really be reserved for products that go above and beyond. If you rate everything as 5 stars, what is left for the one product that really blows you away?

Maybe authors will stop whining about being powerless and get on their publishers asses once they realize the publishers are actively driving away sales.

I don't recall whining, but I do remember noting a fact. I also suggested that the physical presentation should be part of one's rating, but not the overriding part. I would reserve that for the content.

Steve noted in his original comment that Jack McDevitt did get on his publisher's ass. Maybe you think he should have gotten on their asses harder. But maybe you're not in a relationship with them in which ebooks are just one component, and a small one.

People here on MR tend to regard themselves as being in the vanguard, and I suppose that's true. But most of the reading public--as well as the publishing industry--still hasn't embraced the ebook experience. Most authors I know are still like most readers: Books are made of paper, and ebooks are...they're still not sure what, or why people like them.

As for the 5 stars, I happen to agree.

[starrigger]

Originally Posted by L.J. Sellers

I know several people who produce great epub and mobi files for less than $100 per book. If I can find an inexpensive professional, why can't a publisher hire someone similar? I think it's more about not being committed to producing a quality product because e-books are still an afterthought for most publishers.
L.J.
The Sex Club, $.99!

I suspect you're right about the second part. From the description of this particular book problem, it sounded like a bad scan and OCR of an older book for which there was no digital file. You're not going to make quality ebooks from old paperbacks for $100/book, at least not on a mass-market scale. The proofreading alone is going to cost more than that. According to one of my publishers (well, as of a few years ago), it cost maybe a thousand to do a good conversion from a paper book.

So, is that a reason to do a shoddy job? No. But my sense is that publishers with large backlists of paper books they want to convert have yet to develop an economical and reliable way to do it. I think they want to, but they don't want it badly enough. Yet.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by starrigger

Jack McDevitt is a terrific guy and a fine writer, and it's a shame his books got caught in the works of careless and incompetent production. I winced a little when I saw that you'd left a 1-star review because of the poor production quality...

It's been discussed around here before... and yes, I don't enjoy giving a low-star review of a book, but I make it clear in my review that it is strictly because of the production, not the content (which I do state is excellent).

Unfortunately, I don't know any other way to force publishers to improve ebook quality than to give it a review that may impact sales. Authors like Jack either don't know the condition of their books, or cannot force the publishes to take action and improve the books. Publishers won't even acknowledge my direct complaints. Publishers only respond to sales, and if they are aware that bad production is adversely impacting sales, they have a reason to act.

But if you think there's a better way to do this, by all means, let's talk about it (in this thread or elsewhere).

[Adjust]

Originally Posted by L.J. Sellers

I know several people who produce great epub and mobi files for less than $100 per book. If I can find an inexpensive professional, why can't a publisher hire someone similar? I think it's more about not being committed to producing a quality product because e-books are still an afterthought for most publishers.

That, and the fact that the publishers are getting a fantastic introductory offer from the big Indian Companies who offer something along the line of the first 100 titles are free etc etc...

I am in the process of trying desperately to change their minds

[starrigger]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

It's been discussed around here before... and yes, I don't enjoy giving a low-star review of a book, but I make it clear in my review that it is strictly because of the production, not the content (which I do state is excellent).

Unfortunately, I don't know any other way to force publishers to improve ebook quality than to give it a review that may impact sales. Authors like Jack either don't know the condition of their books, or cannot force the publishes to take action and improve the books. Publishers won't even acknowledge my direct complaints. Publishers only respond to sales, and if they are aware that bad production is adversely impacting sales, they have a reason to act.

But if you think there's a better way to do this, by all means, let's talk about it (in this thread or elsewhere).

Steven, I did offer my suggestion of a better way above, but I recognize it's not a perfect solution, either. (If you think it's a 4-star book for content, rate it at 3 stars and give the reason. People do it all the time--e.g., "great movie, not so great transfer--would have given it 5 stars but knocked one off for the presentation.") When you rate a merchant on your satisfaction with a sale, they let you break it down into different components. Too bad they don't do that with books and other entertainment.

I don't think it's true that publishers only respond to sales, though obviously sales are a strong motivating factor. Most of the people I know in publishing really do want to deliver a quality product. At the same time, producing books is a committee effort, and we all know what that can do.

Just because the publisher didn't answer you directly doesn't mean nobody paid attention. Your complaint might well have come up at the next committee meeting. (Courtesy and attention to customer relations is another matter, of course.)

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Jeffrey, I understand what you're saying, and I certainly don't want to "hurt" an author... I do doubt that sales are that heavily impacted by lowering of a rating by 1 star, but that's my opinion, as I don't have facts or numbers to back that up. But as you pointed out, the "committee effect" is surely in place here, and my belief (again, just mine) is that such an august body wouldn't even notice a 1-star-lower rating, and would therefore take no action... whereas seeing a noticeably lower 1-star rating against a product that is known to be a superior read would force them to take notice, and to fix the problem.

I consider a badly-proofed ebook serious enough to be worth 2-3 stars' removal... after all, the book itself is what's most valuable, but a bad presentation can be so damaging as to make the experience too frustrating to be enjoyed. Maybe we should compromise at 2 stars.

Now, all of this wouldn't be necessary if booksellers allowed readers to easily refund such shoddily-produced ebooks. That would allow the artist to be compensated, and the bookseller would have to absorb the cost of refunds (thereby throwing the bookseller's weight behind forcing publishers to clean up texts, or see themselves removed from virtual shelves). But not all booksellers allow ebook refunds, and those that do usually require you to jump through a lot more hoops than you did when buying the ebook.

Originally Posted by starrigger

Just because the publisher didn't answer you directly doesn't mean nobody paid attention. Your complaint might well have come up at the next committee meeting. (Courtesy and attention to customer relations is another matter, of course.)

True... but if they don't respond to me, they can hardly blame me for thinking the worst (in this particular climate) and assuming they are ignoring me. In fact, the response Jack McDevitt passed on to me did not convince me that Harper Collins is taking any action at all... only that he has made them aware of the situation, and they have responded back that "It's outsourced." No mention of talking to the outsourcers, or re-evaluating their relationship... more like, "Whatcha gonna do?" I wouldn't accept that if I was Jack, and it's no more acceptable to me.

Yes, it's bad customer relations. And because of that, I am left with few effective responses other than becoming hard-@$$ about it... and being well aware that authors will be hurt the most by my actions.

But is it really better for me to take the only other alternative--shut up and not buy--and allow others to unknowingly buy shoddy merchandise, and fume on their own? I can't, in good conscience, do that either.

[JakesFriend]

I've gone round and round with Sony on ePubs I purchased that can't be resized (they fault the publisher), but that doesn't help me when I'm reading one of a series of books.

I've also noticed many typographical quirks in ePubs mostly: spaces in the middle of words, stray lines of space, etc.

Regardless of who's to blame, or even who can fix it, I think we should keep speaking up or nothing will be done. One on occasion I wrote to the author (my email was intercepted by his publisher) to let him know that his book was badly reproduced.

I like the idea, though, of contacting my credit card company. If I run into another book that's as bad as some of them have been, I'll do just that!

[ATimson]

Originally Posted by starrigger

Last I heard from my own publishers, each retailer does its own conversion, usually from an RTF file, at least if it's straight text like a novel.

This may have been the case previously, but the formatting in recent Random House and Tor ePub titles seems to bely that; it's simply too close to the print books (and too consistent between stores, comparing my Sony/Borders purchases to the iBooks/B&N samples) to be randomly applied by the retailers...

Self-conversion may be true of non-ePub titles, though they're probably getting OEBPS files (or were, and now just do the conversion from ePub?) and not straight RTF. At least, that's the only explanation I have for how Sony's backlist ePubs, after their conversion last year, have OEBPS "guts" instead of the ePub "guts" I see at B&N!

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Thought I would check out B&N's site further, and realized that reviewers can call up a more detailed ratings board, to provide more info about a book. Although the menu provides aspects such as characterizations, covers, feelings, and what the book is good for, there are no categories for production quality. I don't know of any other booksellers that give you any way of revealing poor ebook quality, except to say so in a written review.

There is also no way to edit or retract a review after a problem is addressed. Overall, it's just an ineffective system.

[MovieBird]

Originally Posted by starrigger

I don't recall whining, but I do remember noting a fact.

Oh, I wasn't referring to you, although quoting you made it seem like such. I'm sorry for that bit of snark coming off as directed at you.

I've just noticed a tendency around these 'ere parts to treat authors as some magical, never wrong, angelic beings. Some authors whine that they have no power to get better contracts, and it's all the dirty publishers fault for high prices and poor product quality, etc. etc., disregarding that the publisher can't set a high price or sell poorly formatted/printed/bound books unless the author gives them a product to sell. A general tendency to blame the evil "other" without taking any personal responsibility just galls me.

I do, however, think publishers are to blame for the lions share of idiocy in this transition to eBooks.

[bitemeok]

I called Sony back and first was told the book was fixed and reposted (in fact it was the same mess), and then told that I had purchased a different edition from the one partially available on Google, which was a complete lie as there is one edition of the book and sinI can't imagine any edition that cuts out the middle of pages. Finally, I was able to talk to a supervisor at Sony who gave me a credit for slightly more than the cost of the book.