Is the ereader dead?

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

... and continue to parrot misleading memes to the uniformed such as "no light shining in your eyes"...

Originally Posted by Frenzie

Then inform us. What is misleading and why?

In order to avoid endless repetition by me I suggest that you do a search among my posts in older threads on the matter. There are also contributions by others in threads regarding brightness for example (and I have just posted in this thread as well addressed to another poster, and others have called out in this thread the meme of light shining), reflective light, etc.

But I suspect it will really be of no interest to you as your question comes across as a confrontation from one not open minded to the matter rather than being a genuine request for information.

[ilovejedd]

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

I would suggest that you would get the best results by using the control of color and brightness that is available within the better reading apps themselves. They give almost infinite control of color for text and background and will control and take brightness down to much lower (and more appropriate for reading in environments of low light or darkness) levels than the device's normal control will.

For myself, I use a background tinted slightly off white, black text (except where the ebook's css uses color) and control brightness appropriate to the reading environment by the app's screen gesture for that (or its menu).

I used to do that with Marvin for iOS, now I just set it to black text on white background. That way, color warmth and brightness are still the same when I switch apps.

iOS 10 introduced more granular control of "Reduce White Point" via Accessibility settings which gets it to a dim enough level for me. At night, I usually have it around 70-80%. Then I just make minor adjustments as needed via vertical swipe in Marvel (although I typically don't have to).

On iOS 9 and older, "Reduce White Point" had one setting (~25%, I believe) which was still too bright so I had to make use of extra dimming settings in my reading apps. Now, I don't have to.

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by latepaul

...With my lighted eInk readers I often find that the brightness goes from too much, to too little to give decent contrast, in a single step. Which is why, where it's available, the invert feature is invaluable for me.

This is typical of reflective displays because even if front lit they are very low contrast displays of low light efficiency (AMOLED has essentially infinite contrast, and non reflective LCD is orders of magnitude greater than eink, passive LCD or paper).

I think this, among other things, is what strikes people about OLED and LCD, this contrast ability gives it a lot of "presence" which needs to be controlled for long sessions of close up reading - the better reading apps give the tools to do that (I use Android version of PocketBook which does, I haven't looked at the other better apps for a while but if I recall correctly others do too).

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

Reflective color LCD has been around for quite a number of years (and, of course, monochrome has been around and used by most of us for many decades), but among other things it runs into similar barriers as other reflective displays in that even with front lighting reflective light efficiency is low so poor colors and consequently not much used.

Poor colors is relative. Only compared to backlit (or self lit as in OLED) screens. I reckon the only reason there is not much going on in pushing reflective screens is that there is no need. Being able to see a screen outside in bright sunlight is a very very niche requirement overall.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

(and I have just posted in this thread as well addressed to another poster, and others have called out in this thread the meme of light shining), reflective light, etc.

Reflective light in tablets is just one of the reasons I like an eInk eReader better ... there are several others.

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Being able to see a screen outside in bright sunlight is a very very niche requirement overall.

Yes , I agree.

The niche that I am hands on most familiar with is that in the marine industry where it is largely filled with sunlight readable high nit/transflective LCD color displays. Passive LCD used to be big for the likes of sailing instruments (wind, speed, electronic compass, etc.) but is now really only seen in some of the cheaper lines, otherwise most are now sunlight readable color LCD. As far as I know eink has never been used despite the importance of instrument sunlight readability.

A market for sunlight readable displays that may not be niche (but as far as I know is not doing as well as was imagined, so may stay niche) is that of smart watches - again all the better ones (maybe most of the lesser ones too?) have AMOLED/OLED or LCD displays. That in contrast (sic) to the old digital watches that were predominantly passive LCD (a few eink ones have appeared).

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Being able to see a screen outside in bright sunlight is a very very niche requirement overall.

So are eReaders in general. Besides reading outside, there's also glare possible when traveling in a car, or even indoors when reading by a window (or even under some overhead lights). I don't read outdoors much, but I do read in cars and by sunlit windows.

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by rcentros

Reflective light in tablets is just one of the reasons I like an eInk eReader better ... there are several others.

I was actually referring to the claims (made in these forums) that diffused reflected light illuminating an eink reader screen is different to other diffused light (such as that from a backlit diffuser such as in a tablet). In fact visible light photons are visible light photons regardless.

Reflection may change polarization and will difuse the light, but LCD displays, for example use diffused light anyway.

With regard to the reflections you are thinking of it should not be a problem. First with any half decent display it should not be an issue even with non-matt glass. Reflections will be visible if the device is off or is asleep with the screen to black but that is of no consequence.

There is another reason why with half decent displays on small devices meant to be used at hand held distance reflections, should they be visible, should not be an issue is that that the optical distance from the eye to the text on the display is only half the optical distance to the reflection. At normal handheld distances the human eye is not capable of focusing or concentrating on both at the same time.

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by rcentros

So are eReaders in general. Besides reading outside, there's also glare possible when traveling in a car, or even indoors when reading by a window (or even under some overhead lights). I don't read outdoors much, but I do read in cars and by sunlit windows.

How do all these thousands (millions?) of people one sees wandering the sunny streets with their faces buried in their LCD and OLED cellphones get on if the displays are not easily readable in sunlight?

I suspect they just do as I do with devices in the sun, and that is use modern higher nit display devices and angle or shade the screen slightly if need be, or if older displays, just shade them a little more. I have a now long retired old AMOLED display phone here, it was never a problem to read on even in direct sunlight and no shading.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

How do all these thousands (millions?) of people one sees wandering the sunny streets with their faces buried in their LCD and OLED cellphones get on if the displays are not easily readable in sunlight?

I think it happens when you get stuck in the past. The advantage that eink offers is shrinking rapidly. Mainly because there hasn't been a real breakthrough in a long time. Even first generation eink looks good in sunlight - not any worse than current apart from resolution maybe. Current generation lcd looks a ton better now than it did previously just a few years ago.

Glare free? Everybody that held an eink device knows that they are not glare free, to say otherwise is dishonest. Held at the wrong angle it is still possible to not be able to read comfortably. Granted, they have a lot less glare than other screens in tablets or phones. The advertisements that show a perfectly glare free Kindle next to a completely unreadable tablet? Sure, that is advertisement that required going out of your way to to make it so.

[Frenzie]

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

In order to avoid endless repetition by me I suggest that you do a search among my posts in older threads on the matter. There are also contributions by others in threads regarding brightness for example (and I have just posted in this thread as well addressed to another poster, and others have called out in this thread the meme of light shining), reflective light, etc.

But I suspect it will really be of no interest to you as your question comes across as a confrontation from one not open minded to the matter rather than being a genuine request for information.

Of course it's a question of "confrontation." Until you prove otherwise, I won't be inclined to believe this so-called meme exists. You can avoid endless repetition perfectly fine with links as opposed to calling on someone else to do your homework for you.

Posts with the word meme: the one I quoted and this one, which is about the complete opposite: another "meme," namely that some older LCDs can be hard to make out in direct sunlight. This particular post would seem to suggest that you use the word meme to mean almost the opposite of what it actually means: namely n=1. Of course it wouldn't make for a good argument if I ran with that, since you clearly don't intend it that way. It would be attacking a straw man.

The only properly relevant-sounding thread: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=289150

Your most relevant looking reply by you in that thread: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...37#post3573237

Of course I didn't look through all your posts, so if they didn't contain the search terms meme, brightness or LCD I probably didn't lay eyes on them, but I reckon I got the gist from the general context of that post. Quoting said most relevant looking post:

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

Second, I roll my eyes every time someone talks about LCDs shining light into their eyes, or claiming reflected light is different to emitted light. Well I'll give them that reflected light is different in that reflection renders it diffuse, but there again LCD screens diffuse their light too so no case there - they just need to turn the brightness down.

You are probably technically correct, of course, yet also (purposefully?) missing the point. When you reflect environmental light, the relative brightness and color temperature will be pretty decent without even trying. It mostly comes down to that.

1. At night, it won't be too bright because there's no minimum brightness inherent in what you're looking at. This is presumably your "meme" about having a light shining in your eyes. If you have a device right in front of you that can't dim the brightness below "it can pretty much light the room at night," then that simple observation is not a meme, let alone parroting a meme. Moreover, I posit that most of us probably have plenty of such devices around the house.
   
   It could be a faulty generalization depending on how it's phrased. Whether it's true for most LCD displays in regular consumer devices is a different question than whether it's inherent in the technology.
2. During the day, there won't be delays or mismatches because the light sensor is shaded. This can be particularly relevant if you're in a moving vehicle, though I would suggest disabling auto-brightness and keeping it too bright in the shadows in that case.

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

I was actually referring to the claims (made in these forums) that diffused reflected light illuminating an eink reader screen is different to other diffused light (such as that from a backlit diffuser such as in a tablet). In fact visible light photons are visible light photons regardless.

Link or it didn't happen. But seriously, without context it's not obvious whether you're right, some form of technically right or a variety of wrong. For example, photons are photons, but that doesn't mean they're all at the same wavelength.

Just to be clear, I don't believe that backlit displays are harmful, at least not beyond the extent to which staring at anything at the same focal length for a prolonged period of time is harmful.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

How do all these thousands (millions?) of people one sees wandering the sunny streets with their faces buried in their LCD and OLED cellphones get on if the displays are not easily readable in sunlight?

I see a lot of people shading their phones with one hand, turning in place and squinting at their screens in bright sunlight. I know my phone is nearly unreadable in bright sunlight. So, yeah, glare is an issue with standard LCD screens. I don't know about expensive, modern ones.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Glare free? Everybody that held an eink device knows that they are not glare free, to say otherwise is dishonest. Held at the wrong angle it is still possible to not be able to read comfortably. Granted, they have a lot less glare than other screens in tablets or phones.

That's an extreme understatement. Glare on an LCD screen (at least the ones I've used) is much, much worse than the glare from an eInk's screen. And, even with glare, the eInk eReader is readable. That can't be said for standard LCD screens in bright sunlight. (I say "standard" but I've never experienced the "non-standard" ones that are said to be see-able in bright sunlight.)

[tomsem]

Well that brings up a good point, which is the skin cancer risk of reading in direct sunlight with your eReader. LCD screens are much safer since they nudge you into the shade.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by tomsem

Well that brings up a good point, which is the skin cancer risk of reading in direct sunlight with your eReader. LCD screens are much safer since they nudge you into the shade.

So it's a "feature" not to be able to read outside when you want to. Maybe we should look into banning printed books for that reason?